[les3547]

You really need to remember the stuff you post.

It was in response to this:

Perhaps I should just start asking you the "relevance." However, you implied that people with ccw were rednecks and cowhands and I just pointed out otherwise. That was the relevance.

I remember what I posted, I didn't see the relevance of telling us you hang out with professors. I still don't. My point was about community rules and how they affect one's attitude, not who one hangs out with.

There is in the business seminar circuit a class that's been around for decades, "dress for success." It's been around so long because it is based on the fact that how we dress affects our attitudes. I believe I've noticed the same thing where it is common for people to carry guns on their person in public, it affects one's attitude; and then collectively, it affects communal spirit.

I've lived in it and don't like the gun-packing communal spirit. If you do, fine! Live that way. I've carefully chosen where I live because of the communal spirit here, I hope concealed carry never becomes the norm.

[les3547]

To use your own words: I like attitudes of people a lot better where concealed carry isn't the norm. Since concealed carry is not only not the norm, it's illegal, those locations should be perfect for you, attitude-wise. Just be aware their crime rates are a wee bit higher. And please note, I'm not talking "area", I'm talking physical location.

I still don't see your point about moving. I currently live in Northern California! Why should I move to get what I already have?

I also don't know what you mean by area vs. physical location. I live in the "wine country" area, in the physical location of a house in a vineyard, in a sweet, cooperating, open community with a Whole Foods, a used book store, a music store, a coffee roaster, and giant year-round produce store . . . perfect!

[Parallax]

I also don't know what you mean by area vs. physical location. I live in the "wine country" area, in the physical location of a house in a vineyard, in a sweet, cooperating, open community with a Whole Foods, a used book store, a music store, a coffee roaster, and giant year-round produce store . . . perfect!

Les, I used to live in Novato, and I've been to Sebastopol. There are pros and cons to living anywhere and there aren't very many places in California where, for my tastes, the pros outweigh the cons; but your area is certainly one of them.

[les3547]

Les, I used to live in Novato, and I've been to Sebastopol. There are pros and cons to living anywhere and there aren't very many places in California where, for my tastes, the pros outweigh the cons; but your area is certainly one of them.

I do understand it isn't always possible to live in one's dream community, but we've always tried to find sanctuaries within areas where we've lived. Who knows where life will force me to go one day, and if I were forced to move again where concealed carry is the norm, I'm not sure how I would handle it.

[Parallax]

if I were forced to move again where concealed carry is the norm, I'm not sure how I would handle it.

I think you would relatively quickly:
1. Realize that the ones with the permits aren't the ones you need to worry about
and
2. Quit thinking about it altogether.

Let me ask you this, Les. California has a pretty high vehicle accident rate and it's reflected in the insurance premiums there vs less congested areas, so from vehicular safety aspect, whom do you fear more; the licensed driver with insurance and a clean driving record, or the guy who drives even though he can't get a license due to a few DWI arrests, or he can't see well enough to pass the test, or just doesn't care enough about any thing or any one to bother getting a license and insurance?

[Jack]

For those who say we need more gun control:
CT Gun Laws Prevented Gunman from Purchasing Rifle Days Before Massacre

[Jack]

There's also a lack of funding for security:
Obama administration, Congress quietly let school security funds lapse | WashingtonGuardian

[lammie200]

...
1. Realize that the ones with the permits aren't the ones you need to worry about
and
2. Quit thinking about it altogether...

1. Didn't that football player that killed his gf with 8 shots last week have his permit?

2. I am trying to.

If I were inviting people over for dinner I am pretty sure that I would pass on inviting someone that I knew was packing regardless of his or her reasoning.

There are no easy solutions, but maybe armed security in schools, malls, places of worship, etc. would make a difference. That would be an interesting poll question. Would Americans feel safer with armed security at the places mentioned above, or would they feel safer knowing that every qualified individual is carrying a concealed firearm?

[les3547]

Let me ask you this, Les. California has a pretty high vehicle accident rate and it's reflected in the insurance premiums there vs less congested areas, so from vehicular safety aspect, whom do you fear more; the licensed driver with insurance and a clean driving record, or the guy who drives even though he can't get a license due to a few DWI arrests, or he can't see well enough to pass the test, or just doesn't care enough about any thing or any one to bother getting a license and insurance?

Assuming your analogy is about guns, I haven't said I "fear" a community full of gun toters, I said I think gun-toting culture affects the community's spirit in ways I don't care for. I haven't said anything against owning guns in general, though I do support the sorts of gun control I mentioned in my post above.

RE: CA . . . I like a lot of other things about N. Cal attitudes too, but I'm convinced the friendly, laid back, health-conscious, environmentally protective, more open feel of things would be changed by everybody packing heat.

[Parallax]

I'm convinced the friendly, laid back, health-conscious, environmentally protective, more open feel of things would be changed by everybody packing heat.

That could very well be, if your community were allowed to after having not been. If you were to move to a comparable community in this part of the country where we've had that freedom for many years, I doubt you'd know the difference, culturally that is. The difference in weather may be a bit obvious though.

[WillH]

That could very well be, if your community were allowed to after having not been. If you were to move to a comparable community in this part of the country where we've had that freedom for many years, I doubt you'd know the difference, culturally that is. The difference in weather may be a bit obvious though.

Very true! I actually live In the "real" Northern California and it's very different from the liberal Hollywood obsessed area south of Sacramento!

[Parallax]

I grew up (okay, spent my first 18 years) in the S.F. Bay Area. In the 80s, while still in the Air Force, I lived in Riverside. Two different worlds.

[grhazelton]

Looking over this thread I can understand why the P & R forum is being discontinued. We participants all too often descend into ad hominem attacks, rather than dealing in a considerate and respectful manner with those who have opinions we disagree with. There is all too often far more heat than light cast upon a subject. All too often we seem more concerned with scoring "points," "gotchas," rather than trying to find common ground with those whom we consider to be opponents.

I'll miss the forum. Perhaps Adam will consider a resurrection after a cool-down time. But if not I can understand.

[Winder]

This is only an argument for the right to bear arms, not what types of arms one can bear. I.e. you should be able to see that some gun control is a good thing.

We do have gun control laws.

I don't think people really understand what an assault rifle is or what it is designed to do. IF I told you assault rifles where not designed to kill what would you say? My guess is you wouldn't believe me. Assault rifles are black and scary and they hold a lot of ammunition, but they aren't designed to kill..... which is why they need a lot of ammunition and need to be fully automatic to really be deadly.

The 5.56x45mm NATO round was developed from the .223 Winchester. It is basically identical except that NATO rounds are a little hotter (higher pressure) to cycle fully automatic weapons. It is a .22 caliber weapon and practically the smallest hunting cartridge you can legally use for medium game, and is a common round for small game and predators (coyotes). The 30-06 is by far the most used hunting cartridge and it is much bigger and much more powerful than a .223. Back in WWII the 30-06 was chambered in the M1 Garand and it was selected because it is a very efficient round (lethal).

Why would the military develop a round for its assault rifles that was not designed to kill? War is a battle of resources. If you kill a man on a battlefield then you subtract 1 person from the fight, and this was the simple idea in early wars. BUT if you wound a man on the battlefield, then you tie up 1-2 other men to carry him off the battlefield. You tie up an ambulance and doctors and fuel to transport the wounded. After WWII military scientists determined that wounding a man on the battlefield is much better than killing a man. The burden of treating wounded is huge and consumes many times more resources that dealing with the dead. This is one reason the military uses full-metal jacket rounds instead of the much more deadly ballistic tips used in hunting rounds. Hunting weapons and bullets are design to kill in 1 shot and drop the target instantly. Those black scary guns are designed to produce clean wound channels and leave the target incapacitated, but alive and in need of medical treatment.

The 5.56x45mm NATO was developed for many reasons and the fact that it was less lethal than the M1 or the M1A (M14) (both use a .30 cal or 7.62mm round) .... or any common hunting cartridge was one key reason. This has not sat well with solders who prefer more lethal weapons, and the M1A (M14) has been brought back out of retirement and fitted with a modern SAGE stock (to make it look as scary as an M4) and is being deployed with Marine units as the M39 EMR.

The typical AR-15 clones that people erroneously refer to as assault rifles are (by design) much less lethal than a 12 gauge shotgun with a deer load. The old M1 Garand witch has never been considered an "assault rifle" is much, much more deadly than anything most uneducated people would refer to as an assault rifle.

I wrote all of this to say one thing. The vast majority of the population does not know "what type of guns" present the most danger or are the most lethal. The people who try to write gun laws typically don't know a bullet from a traffic cone, and why does a politician in DC get to decide what is adequate for my protection. I wouldn't use an assault rifle for personal protection, but that's because they are not nearly as deadly as many other options. I don't own an assault rifle, and currently I don't have any plans or reasons to purchase one. I think they are worthless for anything bigger than prairie dogs...... But they are black and scary looking and people who don't know any better think they are a problem.

None of this addresses the underling issue of what drives people to even THINK about doing what happened yesterday? That is what we should be trying to understand. I don't care about the inanimate object that they kid used. I care about why he did it and what motivated him to commit this atrocity.

Anyone who thinks that magazine capacity is what made this shooting possible. The current world record holder for a revolver (6-shots) is 12 rounds on target in under 3 seconds....... shoot 6..... reload..... shoot 6.... all on target and in 2.99 seconds. Obviously most people are not near this fast, but walking through a school or a mall full of unarmed people you have all the time in the world to reload, so its not overly relevant.

[larryinlc]

All too often we seem more concerned with scoring "points," "gotchas,".

Exactly. 20 very young children and 6 adults are dead and we can't come up with even one common ground solution? Looking at the bigger picture, I don't believe this is even about guns but society in general. Maybe instead of treading on other countries and telling them how to live, we should look in the mirror. Something is going wrong in this country and owning guns is not the problem nor would banning them be a solution. I don't have answers, but another 13 pages of the same old tired politically based debate is getting us nowhere.This thread, like all the others here, is pretty much the same song, different verse. We can do better.

Larry