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12-21-2012, 10:52 AM   #271
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
. . .

As far as the comments by Blue I think it was about a Grade 9 carrying a gun to school, If I am correct it is illegal for anyone under 18 to possess a fire arm. I find that some what counter to the anti gun control argument in that a 35 year old male needs a gun to protect himself but a 15 year old does not however the age group that is most likely to be a victim of crime is the 14-34 year old group. Do they not need protecting? Not allowing youths to have guns is a form of gun control, and common sense. But how do you think youths should feel if all they hear is how adults need not only the right to own a firearm but to take it everywhere they go and are not safe without one. Why should they not feel unsafe without a gun as well if the adults do not? The more that adults talk about needing guns and assult rifles at that to protect themselves and their family the more minors will feel that they too need to be protected. Unless of course people under 18 are never victims in America.


. . .
The point I was making is that we have resource officers in 21 schools here in Leon County that are sworn sheriff's deputies. That is who made the arrest yesterday at Leon High. I didn't make a comment. I made a link and stated the facts. Furthermore, it was illegal for him to have it much less have a ccw License (for it or any weapon). He was in a "Gun Free Zone" under Florida Law. He was planning to hurt someone. Furthermore, he has a record already. I have a CCW License and can't carry a weapon on school property. If I did, I would be arrested and lose the ccw license.

Also, the AR15 Bushmaster is not an assault rifle. It is a semi-automatic carbine. No one has discussed the ages of murder victims. Would you feel better if you were murdered by a 15 year old with a .25 acp pistol or an AR15 in 5.56mm? How about a shotgun blast with 00 or a machete at close range?


Last edited by Blue; 12-21-2012 at 10:57 AM.
12-21-2012, 03:50 PM   #272
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
The point I was making is that we have resource officers in 21 schools here in Leon County that are sworn sheriff's deputies. That is who made the arrest yesterday at Leon High. I didn't make a comment. I made a link and stated the facts. Furthermore, it was illegal for him to have it much less have a ccw License (for it or any weapon). He was in a "Gun Free Zone" under Florida Law. He was planning to hurt someone. Furthermore, he has a record already. I have a CCW License and can't carry a weapon on school property. If I did, I would be arrested and lose the ccw license.

Also, the AR15 Bushmaster is not an assault rifle. It is a semi-automatic carbine. No one has discussed the ages of murder victims. Would you feel better if you were murdered by a 15 year old with a .25 acp pistol or an AR15 in 5.56mm? How about a shotgun blast with 00 or a machete at close range?
I would feel better if nobody was shot and if people did not believe they needed guns with them all the time to protect themselves. As I stated we do not believe we need them and I cannot see how those Americans who choose not to have guns or to have only hunting rifles locked up at home feel as threatened for their own personal safety as the gun lobby argument. That same weapon is considered a restricted weapon in Canada and requires a special license and a clip or magazine or whatever it may be called is limited to either 5 or 6 rounds. My point was in case you missed it how do you expect teenagers to not feel the need for a weapon if the adults keep screaming that without one the adults are not safe?

The other point that might be of interest to you is even as the US crime rate has dropped while fire arms have increased the crime rate has dropped in countries that have increased firearm control and yet the US leads by a long way the number of murders and accidental shootings compared to these countries. Stats taken out of context are not used properly. And finally the main reason for my postings on this subject is I cannot understand why when Americans look at the amount of violence in their society the only factor that cannot be a consideration is the number of fire arms and the relative ease of obtaining them. Video games and movies can be blamed but not the gun culture. And no where have I advocated the banning of all or most guns, but the putting on the table in the discussion that America's love for guns and the belief that only guns can make society better, or so it seems listening from the outside, along with other possible solutions. When pro athletes take guns into their locker room it appears to be more cultural than the need for protection.

To me it looks like too many of my southern neighbours, and I am only 60 miles north of the border, are not interested in starting to solve this complex problem but have turned it political as in left and right rather than pragmatic as in "what are our options and what would work and how". Or look at it as "just more guns and everything will be alright" I know when my country has a problem I prefer society and governments to come together to investigate what can be done to minimize it. It took one school shooting to lower the number of rounds any gun can legally hold in Canada. How many in the US before that can even be discussed. Maybe lowering the number of rounds is not a solution but if it is not even able to be considered it will never be part of the solution and it might be an very important piece.From my personal and outside point of view it is not the most important part, in fact guns themselves are not the most important part but the sooner guns are looked at and perhaps some sensible restrictions are placed and the culture of always needing more guns changes the sooner the other pieces can be dealt with as well. Good luck, unfortunately you really as a nation need it.
12-21-2012, 04:11 PM   #273
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First off, this isn't Canada and the powers don't come from the Government to the People so how things are done in Canada isn't material. As far as killing goes, it is a problem going back thousands of years. China has the rash of mass knife attacks. Oklahoma City had the bombing that killed 158 and wound 100s. Among those was a preschool with 19 childrem killed. As already pointed out, a shotgun or revolver in such a mass attack would have been more damaging and there was no way to counter the attack.

Interesting side step on your initial argument that a 15 year old gang banger should have the right to carry if others did.


QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
I would feel better if nobody was shot and if people did not believe they needed guns with them all the time to protect themselves. As I stated we do not believe we need them and I cannot see how those Americans who choose not to have guns or to have only hunting rifles locked up at home feel as threatened for their own personal safety as the gun lobby argument. That same weapon is considered a restricted weapon in Canada and requires a special license and a clip or magazine or whatever it may be called is limited to either 5 or 6 rounds. My point was in case you missed it how do you expect teenagers to not feel the need for a weapon if the adults keep screaming that without one the adults are not safe?

The other point that might be of interest to you is even as the US crime rate has dropped while fire arms have increased the crime rate has dropped in countries that have increased firearm control and yet the US leads by a long way the number of murders and accidental shootings compared to these countries. Stats taken out of context are not used properly. And finally the main reason for my postings on this subject is I cannot understand why when Americans look at the amount of violence in their society the only factor that cannot be a consideration is the number of fire arms and the relative ease of obtaining them. Video games and movies can be blamed but not the gun culture. And no where have I advocated the banning of all or most guns, but the putting on the table in the discussion that America's love for guns and the belief that only guns can make society better, or so it seems listening from the outside, along with other possible solutions. When pro athletes take guns into their locker room it appears to be more cultural than the need for protection.

To me it looks like too many of my southern neighbours, and I am only 60 miles north of the border, are not interested in starting to solve this complex problem but have turned it political as in left and right rather than pragmatic as in "what are our options and what would work and how". Or look at it as "just more guns and everything will be alright" I know when my country has a problem I prefer society and governments to come together to investigate what can be done to minimize it. It took one school shooting to lower the number of rounds any gun can legally hold in Canada. How many in the US before that can even be discussed. Maybe lowering the number of rounds is not a solution but if it is not even able to be considered it will never be part of the solution and it might be an very important piece.From my personal and outside point of view it is not the most important part, in fact guns themselves are not the most important part but the sooner guns are looked at and perhaps some sensible restrictions are placed and the culture of always needing more guns changes the sooner the other pieces can be dealt with as well. Good luck, unfortunately you really as a nation need it.
12-21-2012, 04:52 PM   #274
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
I would feel better if nobody was shot and if people did not believe they needed guns with them all the time to protect themselves. As I stated we do not believe we need them and I cannot see how those Americans who choose not to have guns or to have only hunting rifles locked up at home feel as threatened for their own personal safety as the gun lobby argument. That same weapon is considered a restricted weapon in Canada and requires a special license and a clip or magazine or whatever it may be called is limited to either 5 or 6 rounds. My point was in case you missed it how do you expect teenagers to not feel the need for a weapon if the adults keep screaming that without one the adults are not safe?

The other point that might be of interest to you is even as the US crime rate has dropped while fire arms have increased the crime rate has dropped in countries that have increased firearm control and yet the US leads by a long way the number of murders and accidental shootings compared to these countries. Stats taken out of context are not used properly. And finally the main reason for my postings on this subject is I cannot understand why when Americans look at the amount of violence in their society the only factor that cannot be a consideration is the number of fire arms and the relative ease of obtaining them. Video games and movies can be blamed but not the gun culture. And no where have I advocated the banning of all or most guns, but the putting on the table in the discussion that America's love for guns and the belief that only guns can make society better, or so it seems listening from the outside, along with other possible solutions. When pro athletes take guns into their locker room it appears to be more cultural than the need for protection.

To me it looks like too many of my southern neighbours, and I am only 60 miles north of the border, are not interested in starting to solve this complex problem but have turned it political as in left and right rather than pragmatic as in "what are our options and what would work and how". Or look at it as "just more guns and everything will be alright" I know when my country has a problem I prefer society and governments to come together to investigate what can be done to minimize it. It took one school shooting to lower the number of rounds any gun can legally hold in Canada. How many in the US before that can even be discussed. Maybe lowering the number of rounds is not a solution but if it is not even able to be considered it will never be part of the solution and it might be an very important piece.From my personal and outside point of view it is not the most important part, in fact guns themselves are not the most important part but the sooner guns are looked at and perhaps some sensible restrictions are placed and the culture of always needing more guns changes the sooner the other pieces can be dealt with as well. Good luck, unfortunately you really as a nation need it.
For me, it boils down to this: I prefer to live in a country that allows me to protect my home, property and life than in one that doesn't.

12-21-2012, 05:02 PM   #275
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On the other hand, I live in a country where although the regular citizen doesn't have the freedom to bear arms, there is a low rate of homicide, by firearms or otherwise. I have never felt the need to wield any weapon in order to protect myself, my family or my home. I have left my home open at times we have gone out and have not been burgled. The only times I have been robbed have been by guests stealing things from my house while I was in it. And even then, I blame myself for leaving items of value on the kitchen counter or dining table. Granted, I don't live in the big smoke, but Toowoomba isn't a small town, and has its own share of social ills. Despite this, I've always felt safe, and never had to worry about my wife or children being out anywhere in town on their own. I really do live in a lucky country.
12-21-2012, 05:20 PM   #276
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
For me, it boils down to this: I prefer to live in a country that allows me to protect my home, property and life than in one that doesn't.
Sounds good, no more reason to ever be allowed to carry a gun outside the home then!

Jason
12-21-2012, 05:27 PM   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
On the other hand, I live in a country where although the regular citizen doesn't have the freedom to bear arms, there is a low rate of homicide, by firearms or otherwise. I have never felt the need to wield any weapon in order to protect myself, my family or my home. I have left my home open at times we have gone out and have not been burgled. The only times I have been robbed have been by guests stealing things from my house while I was in it. And even then, I blame myself for leaving items of value on the kitchen counter or dining table. Granted, I don't live in the big smoke, but Toowoomba isn't a small town, and has its own share of social ills. Despite this, I've always felt safe, and never had to worry about my wife or children being out anywhere in town on their own. I really do live in a lucky country.
USA is gun obsessed and like an addict who is threatened by the removal of his drug of choice, becomes more obsessed with feeding his habit. We are fear-intoxicated and without the guns to use as a threat or deterrent, simply does not seem to be very American these days. Besides, if we can't agree on an intelligent universal health and education system, why would we ever agree on something that may lead to less gun related deaths and injuries or more gun-free education? The freedom to choose has led us to the inability to rationalize. USA, home of the afraid. Enjoy the decline.

Jason

12-21-2012, 05:28 PM   #278
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
Sounds good, no more reason to ever be allowed to carry a gun outside the home then!

Jason
Quite true if you never go outside your home.
12-21-2012, 05:30 PM   #279
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You'd feel threatened each time you left your home if not armed and carrying?

Jason
12-21-2012, 05:59 PM   #280
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
First off, this isn't Canada and the powers don't come from the Government to the People so how things are done in Canada isn't material. As far as killing goes, it is a problem going back thousands of years. China has the rash of mass knife attacks. Oklahoma City had the bombing that killed 158 and wound 100s. Among those was a preschool with 19 childrem killed. As already pointed out, a shotgun or revolver in such a mass attack would have been more damaging and there was no way to counter the attack.

Interesting side step on your initial argument that a 15 year old gang banger should have the right to carry if others did.
I did not side step because I never but forth the argument that he should. My point is the logic is flawed if you claim that adults need weapons to defend themselves and there should be no limits on the weapons but under age do not need that protection because it is against the law for them to posses said weapon (gun control) I was arguing against your logic and no I do not believe that a 15 year should have a gun at school. How things are done in Canada is material if one is claiming that gun control does not work anywhere and refuses to look at the stats only cherry picking tragic events when they occur. Either what happens outside the US is material or it isn't but it cannot be material only to support one side but not on the other, that would not be a fair discussion in my mind.

So killings have always occurred and one can kill with things other than guns so the answer is no restrictions except on where guns can be restricted?

Again the 15 year old is statistically more likely to be a victim of a crime than an adult older than 34. If guns are needed to protect adults and you are not safe without one why is the teenager by law prohibited from defending himself? It is not that I think they should be allowed to carry but why if it is needed for you it is not needed for them? A society should be safe so that neither the youth nor adults should need to be armed, especially in schools. If yours is not and the ONLY way is to have more arms so be it but do not be surprised if some one else finds some fault in the logic in your statements.
12-21-2012, 05:59 PM   #281
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
You'd feel threatened each time you left your home if not armed and carrying?

Jason
Mostly when I am at the gas pump or an atm. My doors are unlocked most of the time when I am home. Also, as I said early, Katrina aftermath was gnarly as was Port-au-Prince.
12-21-2012, 06:03 PM   #282
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Mostly when I am at the gas pump or an atm. My doors are unlocked most of the time when I am home. Also, as I said early, Katrina aftermath was gnarly as was Port-au-Prince.
Only thing I feel at the gas pump is like I just got ??????? and didn't get a smoke afterwards/
12-21-2012, 06:58 PM   #283
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
You'd feel threatened each time you left your home if not armed and carrying?

Jason
The children and educators murdered last week were not at home.... The only person Adam Lanza killed in their home was his own mother...
12-21-2012, 08:37 PM   #284
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
I did not side step because I never but forth the argument that he should. My point is the logic is flawed if you claim that adults need weapons to defend themselves and there should be no limits on the weapons but under age do not need that protection because it is against the law for them to posses said weapon (gun control) I was arguing against your logic and no I do not believe that a 15 year should have a gun at school. How things are done in Canada is material if one is claiming that gun control does not work anywhere and refuses to look at the stats only cherry picking tragic events when they occur. Either what happens outside the US is material or it isn't but it cannot be material only to support one side but not on the other, that would not be a fair discussion in my mind.

So killings have always occurred and one can kill with things other than guns so the answer is no restrictions except on where guns can be restricted?

Again the 15 year old is statistically more likely to be a victim of a crime than an adult older than 34. If guns are needed to protect adults and you are not safe without one why is the teenager by law prohibited from defending himself? It is not that I think they should be allowed to carry but why if it is needed for you it is not needed for them? A society should be safe so that neither the youth nor adults should need to be armed, especially in schools. If yours is not and the ONLY way is to have more arms so be it but do not be surprised if some one else finds some fault in the logic in your statements.
They are very heavily restricted. The problem many people don't seem to grasp is that people committing crimes don't care about the law. Plus, it has been pointed out numerous times that there is plenty of carnage by other methods. Furthermore, your argument about juvenile delinquents carrying weapons without a ccw license is a red herring if there ever was one. Even if they were allowed, it would be illegal in the gun free zone. I guess we should allow junior high and high school kids drink beer and whiskey as well.
12-21-2012, 08:42 PM   #285
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
USA is gun obsessed and like an addict who is threatened by the removal of his drug of choice, becomes more obsessed with feeding his habit. We are fear-intoxicated and without the guns to use as a threat or deterrent, simply does not seem to be very American these days. Besides, if we can't agree on an intelligent universal health and education system, why would we ever agree on something that may lead to less gun related deaths and injuries or more gun-free education? The freedom to choose has led us to the inability to rationalize. USA, home of the afraid. Enjoy the decline.

Jason
What is shocking is the paranoia of the hysterical masses that think an all ban an any sort of weapons is going to magically transform the planet. It seem like the gun ban folks are the ones that are paranoid and afraid. The problem is, the criminals and nut jobs won't be unarmed. Like I said before, you apparently haven't seen a prolonged Katrina after math or Port-au-Prince situation. Lastly, there have been multiple cases pointed out in these discussions about off duty and former police going on shooting sprees not to mention the Ft. Hood Major going on a shooting spree in a "sterile ares" of the base.
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