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02-20-2013, 08:51 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by wlachan Quote
Do a visual check on all the capacitors of the motherboard and see if any of them is/are inflated or leaks.

I would run all these softwares (in the same order) and see if the problem will go away.
CoreTemp (see if the CPU overheat)
Memtest86+ (burn it on CD and reboot for a complete ram test))
CrystalDiskInfo (check hard drive SMART status)
SeaTools for Windows (Long tests)
Spybot
SUPERAntiSpyware Free Edition
CCleaner (Registry Cleaner)
Windows Updates

Also, "some" of the plugs from the PSU can go bad and not providing enough peak power for the hard drive. You can check their 5V voltages one by one using a multimeter, or you can simply swap them and see if the hard drive will work correctly. A partially working PSU should be replaced.
Thanks for the list of diagnostics. I will have to wait until Friday when I have the time to get into this.

QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
If you have any USB devices plugged in, such as a cell phone, disconnect them during the boot and see what happens. If your USB drivers aren't current you can have this problem. Sounds weird, but it's true, and it will be intermittent.

Running CHKDSK should tell you if you have any bad sectors on the drive.

If you have a WD hard drive, there was a known problem with the controller board overheating and eventually failing. This is also an intermittent problem, but eventually the board fries itself and fails completely. I had three that suffered this malady.
The only USB devises I have right now are 2 external hard drives. I've ejected and unplugged them to take them out of the equation. In the device manager I've tried to update the drivers for the flagged USB devices but they all come back with "drivers up to date". I have run CHDSK and it comes back with no errors. It is a WD hard drive - will keep this in consideration.

QuoteOriginally posted by BigDave Quote
One thing you do not mention in the description of your PC is the amount of RAM you have, and how much hard drive space you have left. If you have less than 4 GB of ram, max it out. RAM is still very cheap and a quick fix for most of these issues. Also, if you have used more than 50% of your HD space, this can slow things down also. It is interesting to note that you started having these issues AFTER installing Lightroom. Although LR is not running when you start, something is loading from LR, and as it is a trial version, it could be looking for the license each time you start up. Try uninstalling it and restarting your PC to see if that cleans it up.

But no matter, if you are working with images, a terabyte of RAM would be nice (though you are probably limited to 4GB max).

Good luck!
I have 4gb of ram which is max for the machine. The hard drive is a WD 500gb which is 1/3 full. I have no uninstalled the Lightroom trial to see if that will help since that is the only thing I have installed recently, and was installed just before this all started to happen. Have not done a restart yet since I uninstalled it (half scared right now to try a restart since it is working). Again, on Friday when I have time I will if not before.

QuoteOriginally posted by colonel00 Quote
You can also use Event Viewer (type this into the search box when you click on Start) to help determine what issues are reoccurring. It can be a challenge to work through but this was the most helpful for me recently when I was having issues with a drive. Essentially I came to find that my SATA controller was malfunctioning. Much like Tom S. mentioned, the controller for all but one of my SATA ports was having issues and kept causing major issues. Once I plugged the drive into a good port I haven't had an issue since. Another simple fix attempt is replacing the sata cables assuming that the drive is a sata drive and not IDE. Event Viewer can help in steering you in areas like this. Look for the critical errors that occur around the times of crashes/failed starts.
I did take a look at the event viewer - the only critical events it showed was when I did the hard shut downs by holding the power button. Am going to look into that further.

-------------------------

I don't mean to be short with my answers - just trying to keep track and acknowledge all the suggestions. Also trying to keep everyone informed of what I have tried in order to help narrow down the problem. I won't have the time to really dig into this further until Friday now, and since it is up and everything running right now, I am not going to shut it down or restart until then. I have a busy day tomorrow and won't have the time to dedicate to trying all your suggestions.

Thanks you all for your help so far - I will update again on Friday when I start working on the suggestions listed here.

02-20-2013, 09:07 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by stormtech Quote
Thanks for the list of diagnostics. I will have to wait until Friday when I have the time to get into this.



The only USB devises I have right now are 2 external hard drives. I've ejected and unplugged them to take them out of the equation. In the device manager I've tried to update the drivers for the flagged USB devices but they all come back with "drivers up to date". I have run CHDSK and it comes back with no errors. It is a WD hard drive - will keep this in consideration.



I have 4gb of ram which is max for the machine. The hard drive is a WD 500gb which is 1/3 full. I have no uninstalled the Lightroom trial to see if that will help since that is the only thing I have installed recently, and was installed just before this all started to happen. Have not done a restart yet since I uninstalled it (half scared right now to try a restart since it is working). Again, on Friday when I have time I will if not before.



I did take a look at the event viewer - the only critical events it showed was when I did the hard shut downs by holding the power button. Am going to look into that further.

-------------------------

I don't mean to be short with my answers - just trying to keep track and acknowledge all the suggestions. Also trying to keep everyone informed of what I have tried in order to help narrow down the problem. I won't have the time to really dig into this further until Friday now, and since it is up and everything running right now, I am not going to shut it down or restart until then. I have a busy day tomorrow and won't have the time to dedicate to trying all your suggestions.

Thanks you all for your help so far - I will update again on Friday when I start working on the suggestions listed here.

Off the cuff guess but it sounds more on the line of the infamous "capacitor rot" on the motherboard... .10 cheap Chinese parts are still causing havoc in the electronics world.. Just tossed a 4 year old board w/ the infamous problem.. Can't even begin to count the number of power supplies and MB's (from many manufacturers) that had popped, leaking caps..

If your board is over 3 yrs old I'd look at it and see if you have any of the larger capacitors w/ bubbled tops and/or leaks at the base.

Capacitor plague - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

for awhile I had hoped this problem was finally fixed but just got done fighting w/ one box (as mentioned) for a few days that I had let my guard down. Found 3 caps w/ bubbled tops.. also some corruption on the hard drives which I assume were caused by ( I assume) fluctuating voltage caused by the bad caps..

For my personal use I refuse to buy any MB's that don't have the Japanese caps in them..
The "selling point" of advertising "good caps" is not just a "selling point" ....

Can't even begun to estimate the 100's of dollars wasted due to cheap capacitors..



When HD's fail they fail, rarely going mildly intermittent...
02-20-2013, 09:07 PM   #18
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I had similar problems a month ago - start with not booting up properly, fixing bad sectors and progressed to the impending failure message and then failure. Mine did locate bad sectors and correct file system errors in between and the problems just got worse with each subsequent start up.

I did manage to save most of my important files on backup. After I put in a new HDD and installed Windows, I was able to recover most of my remaining files using Piriform's Recuva (free download) by connecting the failed HDD as a USB device even though Windows identified the USB device as unformatted.
02-21-2013, 05:28 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by jhaji Quote
I had similar problems a month ago - start with not booting up properly, fixing bad sectors and progressed to the impending failure message and then failure. Mine did locate bad sectors and correct file system errors in between and the problems just got worse with each subsequent start up.

I did manage to save most of my important files on backup. After I put in a new HDD and installed Windows, I was able to recover most of my remaining files using Piriform's Recuva (free download) by connecting the failed HDD as a USB device even though Windows identified the USB device as unformatted.

That is what I mean.. I wouldn't call creating bad sectors really an intermittent problem like a slow boot..
Also most of the bad hard drives start to make funny noises (clickings, whiney noise) usually before complete failure...
windows NTFS file system is not very hearty either.. It seems to be easily corrupt it's FAT, another pet peeve of mine.

Though this is old it STILL applies in one aspect or another..........

QuoteQuote:
Enter ntfs, the "industrial strength" filesystem the world was waiting for. ntfs I think is the only option in Windows Vista, and it looks like Microsoft will be banking on it for many years yet. And yet I've had more unrecoverable crashes with ntfs than I've had with fat32 (which I've use longer). I recall using Partition Magic back in the days, which worked like a charm with anything but ntfs. And the checks for corruption on ntfs volumes would also takes ages to complete. I stopped using ntfs as I just didn't trust it. It's like a complicated beast of a system (which I guess is why old PowerQuest didn't do such a great job of supporting it), that noone (save for MS) seems to understand, that only works well in ideal conditions (don't try to resize it or anything 'crazy' like that) and if it crashes, who knows what to do. The lack of ntfs support on linux also tells the story of a filesystem which might just be more complicated than it needs to be. In addition, there's no straightforward way to make a full system backup (without specialized 3rd party software), because of all the special locks and restrictions MS has on selected files.

While it's evident that fat32 is antiquated, I would only use ntfs while vigorously backing it up (to the extent that it's even possible), knowing that if it blows up, there's a host of complicated ntfs recovery tools out there, most very limited in what they offer, but none that I've actually succeeded doing anything with.
why do Windows filesystems suck so? ~ numerodix blog


what you get w a "monopoly"............

Another issue mentioned here is USB devices.. Yes sometimes certain devices have a hard time loading on start for one reason or another (bad drivers, high electrical demand) Some hand held scanners I use are notorious for not allowing a fast boot while plugged in. Best to start the OS then plug them in..Early MB's cheated on the USB spec for power demand at the ports and are under-capacity for some or a collection of multiple devices..

My very first diagnostic step was to plug in a different Power supply. Historically I've had probably 50% HD failure 30%MB cap failure 10%HD (mostly Maxtor and Western Digital). I used to consider Seagate bullet proof (though others would disagree) up until their acquisition of WD (coincidence??) and their firmware foobar on larger drives. Never used IBM "deathstars" which are now made by Hitachi (or is it Fujitsu).

Anyways your failure pattern doesn't lead me to your HD first..


Last edited by jeffkrol; 02-21-2013 at 05:57 AM.
02-21-2013, 06:42 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by stormtech Quote
I downloaded the utility from Western Digital and ran its test - test says it passed.

The last thing I installed was the trial for Lightroon 4. That was on Monday and these problems started on Tuesday.

I am using Microsoft Security Essentials which shows no problems - ran the scan manually and show no problems.

I do not know how to edit start up files.

The computer is running fine right now and have no plans to shut it off until I figure out the problem. The last time I started it successfully, everything seemed fine, but I just noticed my clock was one hour off - weird.


For some reason if you reboot and it appears to hang, walk away and get a cup of coffee. Give the CPU 5 minutes to sort the problem. After 5 minutes you might as well power down and try again. Turning it off when it might recover is just making more work. When it hangs does the PS fan continue to run?

You say you are running Windows 7. 7 came in a 32 bit and a 64 bit version. LR4 requires the 64 bit version. It isn't smart enough not to install on the wrong machine. It locked up my 32 bit XP in a heartbeat. Start > Computer > System Properties will tell you which you are running on the OS line.

The CPU and PS demands are higher at boot than at any other time. A weak PS or a dirty cooling fan can hang the CPU at boot and work fine the rest of the time. Plugging in a new one is the only 100% accurate test for the PS. The fan can be cleaned using an old or your wife's toothbrush. I'm weird and always keep a spare PS on hand as the good ones are cheap online and expensive locally.

I took some screen shots and can walk you through taking a look at and turning off things in your start up files. It is simple check boxes and 100% reversible. I won't bother to upload them until you sort through all the suggestions in this thread.
02-21-2013, 07:21 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Colbyt Quote
For some reason if you reboot and it appears to hang, walk away and get a cup of coffee. Give the CPU 5 minutes to sort the problem. After 5 minutes you might as well power down and try again. Turning it off when it might recover is just making more work. When it hangs does the PS fan continue to run?

You say you are running Windows 7. 7 came in a 32 bit and a 64 bit version. LR4 requires the 64 bit version. It isn't smart enough not to install on the wrong machine. It locked up my 32 bit XP in a heartbeat. Start > Computer > System Properties will tell you which you are running on the OS line.

The CPU and PS demands are higher at boot than at any other time. A weak PS or a dirty cooling fan can hang the CPU at boot and work fine the rest of the time. Plugging in a new one is the only 100% accurate test for the PS. The fan can be cleaned using an old or your wife's toothbrush. I'm weird and always keep a spare PS on hand as the good ones are cheap online and expensive locally.

I took some screen shots and can walk you through taking a look at and turning off things in your start up files. It is simple check boxes and 100% reversible. I won't bother to upload them until you sort through all the suggestions in this thread.
Thanks again for the help.

I have given it more than 10 minutes when it hangs on startup.

I do have the 64 bit version of Windows 7.

I do routinely clean my tower inside and out.

I might have time to dig into this some this evening, and have pretty much dedicated my day to getting this sorted tomorrow. What I have done just poking around this morning before I have to leave is - uninstalled the Lightroom trial. Looked again at the event viewer - the only critical event was - event id 41 kernel-power. I did a quick google search of this and found some references to driver problems. Also under warning in the event viewer, I had 700 and some events of event id 14 nvlddmkm which I think points to the graphics card. So my plan of attach when I get started is:

Physically check the motherboard/video card/cables and connections for problems like stated above with capacitor spillage or anything else out of the ordinary.
Update the video driver - I have an nvidia GT520 video card that I added to the PCIexpress slot about 6 months ago when I got my new monitor. The critical event seems to point to this.

I did end up shutting down the machine last night. When I started it this morning, it did the same freeze at the welcome screen - back to the basics this is my main symptom. I then did a hard shut down, and restarted hitting F8, then used "use last know good configuration" - it started right up quickly and gracefully and everything is running fine. So after eliminating some obvious and simple hardware issues, I think my main problem is a start up problem which very well may be a driver conflict issue.

And I did find where to edit the startup files after looking since you suggested that. Haven't touched any of that yet but may help in narrowing down a driver problem when I dig into this.

Last edited by photolady95; 04-17-2016 at 02:43 AM.
02-21-2013, 07:54 AM   #22
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^^^ Doing a quick search for nvlddmkm it appears that this is a graphics driver issue that could definitely cause issues when booting. This seemed to be a fairly common issue based on the first Google results that came up. You might try to follow some of those fixes. Is the event viewer you posted directly after your boot failure this morning? You can click on those errors to get the exact times to try to narrow it down further. Anyway, are you using the onboard motherboard graphics or do you have a separate graphics card?

02-21-2013, 08:13 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by colonel00 Quote
^^^ Doing a quick search for nvlddmkm it appears that this is a graphics driver issue that could definitely cause issues when booting. This seemed to be a fairly common issue based on the first Google results that came up. You might try to follow some of those fixes. Is the event viewer you posted directly after your boot failure this morning? You can click on those errors to get the exact times to try to narrow it down further. Anyway, are you using the onboard motherboard graphics or do you have a separate graphics card?
That's good info about clicking on the event to show the actual times. Funny that none of the critical events or critical warnings occurred with my boot up this morning....

I am using an add-on graphics card - nvidia GT520 that I installed about 4 months ago. I am going to pursue this more this evening/tomorrow as I think we are narrowing it down to a driver conflict of some sort which looks like the graphics driver is involved.

When looking at some of the fixes for the nviddmkm, it was mentioned to look at the audio drivers also. In the device manager, under audio, there are 2 entries - nvidia high definition audio and Realtek high definition audio. Now this doesn't make sense why there would be an nvidia entry there. I am using only the on-board audio which should be driven by the Realtek I am assuming. I am going to disable the nvidia audio driver and see what happens.

Got to take off now - will update again this evening when I dig into it more.

Thanks for the help!
02-21-2013, 11:20 AM   #24
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There is a Microsoft Hot Fix for Windows 7 for this specific issue (hanging at the startup screen).

Supposedly it has to do with multiple services trying to start at the same time.

I have been seeing this issue where I work and sometimes the Hotfix helps, sometimes it doesn't.

Not at work so didn't have an exact link so I did a search.

Turns out that there are two separate hotfixes for similar issues, but that are caused by different things.

The Welcome screen may be displayed for 30 seconds during the logon process after you set a solid color as the desktop background in Windows 7 or in Windows Server 2008 R2

Windows Vista, Windows Server 2008, Windows 7, or Windows Server 2008 R2 may stop responding at the Welcome screen after you enter the user credentials to log on to the computer
02-21-2013, 02:49 PM   #25
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cyclone3d - I thought I would wait until I tried my other basic tests before looking into those hot fixes you posted.

So here is what I did so far:

Shut down computer and open case. Before I shut it down I looked for all the fans to be working as I can't hear them - all 3 internal fans plus the graphics card fan all running.

Looked for any obvious capacitor leaks etc. - didn't see anything obviously wrong.

Removed the graphics card to inspect and reinstalled to be sure it was seated properly. Fired up and once again got the freeze at the welcome screen.

Restarted into safe mode - then went to the device manager and hit "roll back driver". Restart, but now the computer is in a continuous loop of restart without even getting to the welcome screen.

Next I removed the graphics card, hooked up a VGA cable to the motherboard graphics port - computer started fine. This would have worked fine as is, but wanted to dig further as I want to use the graphics card I bought for my nice monitor.

Deleted all instances of nvidia I could find including drivers and shut down.

Reinstalled graphics card.

Computer started fine but with the resolution etc wrong. Went into the device manager, and of course it showed that no driver was available to be loaded for the graphics card. In the driver details, I hit "install new driver" then used "find driver either on machine or on the internet", Found a driver and installed with no problem. Rebooted and computer started gracefully. No errors in the device manager at all now.

So that is where I stop for now hoping that all is good. I'll see how it starts again tomorrow morning, but I am thinking I might have it now. For some reason I am thinking the graphics driver was causing all this all along. Just can't figure out why this happened all of a sudden unless Lightroom tried to configure something in the graphics department when I installed it.

Thanks again so much everyone for helping me along here. Years ago I used to be a novice at troubleshooting computers - was the go-to guy for the locals to help them fix their machines. I seemed to have lost my confidence since not doing it for so long so it was a huge help having everyone here help my troubleshoot.

Here's hoping I have a nice smooth start tomorrow morning!
02-21-2013, 09:05 PM   #26
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Stan....I don't want to alarm you, but reading all this reminds me of my own recent experience. First some lights started blinking funny, then my horn turned on my windshield wipers, then my fog lights went out....next the turn signals. Yep, a momma squirrel had built a nest under the hood of my Jeep, and ate up the wiring harness that was in her way.
Just saying...open the case and take a look, you can't be too cautious with those damn squirrels around.
Regards!
02-21-2013, 09:22 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Stan....I don't want to alarm you, but reading all this reminds me of my own recent experience. First some lights started blinking funny, then my horn turned on my windshield wipers, then my fog lights went out....next the turn signals. Yep, a momma squirrel had built a nest under the hood of my Jeep, and ate up the wiring harness that was in her way.
Just saying...open the case and take a look, you can't be too cautious with those damn squirrels around.
Regards!
Thanks for that Rupert! I needed a little levity after all this even though at your expense.......

My wife is very worried about Otis' well being after your harness escapade. Our guys have been stashing ammunition up here for some reason......

Last edited by photolady95; 04-17-2016 at 02:43 AM.
02-22-2013, 06:55 AM   #28
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Stan, no reason for her to worry about Otis. He is surrounded by his well armed Army of Squirrels, and that damn drum playing Devil Squirrel. I hear the Secret Service takes lessons from Otis' guard detail. If she wants to worry (some women just do! ) tell her to worry about my Jeep. I am seeing squirrels wearing a "Jeep Patch" on their little arms to signify their war with me. Kind of scary.........

Regards!
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