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12-18-2014, 01:07 AM   #1
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Sydney Siege - Commonwealth vs State

Question for Australian forum members; does anyone now the specific legalities surrounding the trigger to engage commonwealth agencies in a domestic siege (terrorist) event? Is the onus on the State Gov't, or can the Commonwealth forcibly intervene?

12-18-2014, 02:12 AM   #2
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I cannot answer precisely, but in general the Australian constitution defines very clearly which powers are state and which are federal and the state would need to ask for the use of federal assets if federal has something that state needs.


Are you thinking of the observation of some spotty suits in the siege?


Generally the agencies do seem to interact quite effectively.
12-18-2014, 02:16 AM   #3
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I believe that under conditions of civil control (that is, not in a state of war) the State would ask the Commonwealth for assistance. I cannot imagine a situation where the Commonwealth would launch an uninvited independent intervention because of the command and control issues that would arise. Having said that, it would not surprise me if all parties were conducting a review of protocols and processes.
12-18-2014, 03:20 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by tim60 Quote
Are you thinking of the observation of some spotty suits in the siege?
Not exactly. Putting aside the issues of bail and intelligence, there seems to be fertile ground for a thorough assessment of the actual handling of the siege itself. I was curious as to who ultimately sits over the operation.

QuoteOriginally posted by PJ1 Quote
I believe that under conditions of civil control (that is, not in a state of war) the State would ask the Commonwealth for assistance. I cannot imagine a situation where the Commonwealth would launch an uninvited independent intervention because of the command and control issues that would arise. Having said that, it would not surprise me if all parties were conducting a review of protocols and processes.
It wouldn't suprise me if the thought processes of the State agencies were to come under particular scrutiny.

12-18-2014, 03:53 AM   #5
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What worries me is this “not terrorism, act of a lone madman” rubbish. I hope the authorities are smarter than that. He obtained an illegal firearm. I suspect he got it from within his “culture” and that those who supplied him with it knew how he would probably use it (or provided it to him with that object in mind). Apparently, he bumped into someone in Martin Place on the way to Lindt. In an exchange of words he is supposed to have said “Do you want me to shoot you too”. The individual who reported that said that he was accompanied by two other men who appeared to be members of the same “culture”. If so, they may have been escorting him to the site to put the operation in place. I have no doubt he was deranged. But that would have made him the perfect choice for the job. He could be run as someone ‘outside’ the main operation. What if what happened on Monday was just a trial run. They now know how police will react, how far back containmentlines will be, where ambulances are likely to assemble, etc. How hard would it be now for ten or twelve individuals to stage a simultaneous hit on four locations far enough apart that the authorities have to handle them separately, with prepositioned bombs at what are likely to be key points, etc? I don’t know that anyone actually has that capability. But I hope we don’t find out either.

On another aspect, apparently he demanded an ISIL flag. The flag is prohibited in New South Wales (?) but someone from that “culture” was asked if she could get one. According to the report I read, she said she contacted “plenty of people” who had one but they would not give it up because they thought it was a trick by police to find out who had the flag. This is disturbing on two counts: first, it shows that there is considerable support for ISIL with that “culture” in Australia and, second, it suggests that members of that “culture” are inclined to believe that other followers of their “culture” will not betray their leanings. Today I heard Opposition Leader Bill Shorten shy away from the “terrorism” claim because he said he didn’t want to hang a question mark over an entire community. If this report is true, I would say there is a pretty big question mark hanging there somewhere.

That’s probably enough. I used to dabble a bit in defence media studies which gives me some background.
12-18-2014, 04:27 AM   #6
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As I understand it, the Feds were asked to provide assistance, but the NSW police were running the show. Don't quote me on that though....
12-19-2014, 02:23 AM   #7
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It's a state matter. That's why Baird was doing the talking flanked by the police commissioner. The investigation will be state, too - I don't think the Feds even have a coroner. But Federal services get co-opted in times of crisis, and there will be questions as to why the villain wasn't on the ASIO watch list at the time.

Btw, he was an outcast from the local Muslim population if reports are to be believed.

And IIRC the arrests of a painfully amateurish group who plotted years ago to attack Holdsworth Army Base were helped by intel from the mainstream Islamic community.


Last edited by clackers; 12-19-2014 at 05:03 AM.
12-19-2014, 07:29 AM   #8
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Please keep the discussions non-political or face the consequences!
12-19-2014, 12:51 PM - 1 Like   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
It's a state matter. That's why Baird was doing the talking flanked by the police commissioner. The investigation will be state, too - I don't think the Feds even have a coroner. But Federal services get co-opted in times of crisis, and there will be questions as to why the villain wasn't on the ASIO watch list at the time.

Btw, he was an outcast from the local Muslim population if reports are to be believed.

And IIRC the arrests of a painfully amateurish group who plotted years ago to attack Holdsworth Army Base were helped by intel from the mainstream Islamic community.
Sometimes the crazies like to co-opt a cause, because it gives them a feeling of righteousness, and (of course) more publicity.
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