[lightbox]

Depends on the driver. I have a small car and a very large SUV; in both, my emphasis is on accident avoidance!

Yes maam, the driver has a lot to do with it. The little car though is going to be able to get out of the way in a hurry, and has the tools to do so. The big car is slow and heavy, with a higher center of gravity. It takes longer to go, stop, and turn. That all works against being able to get out of Dodge (so to speak) you necessarily must brace for impact in a lot of cases and when that happens, it's only the car's mass, energy absorption systems and restraints that will help. That's not even considering the other car.

[Rupert]

Yep. Anecdotal "evidence" trumps fact. Every time.

It must be true, 'cause I heard somebody say so.

Ain't it the truth! I did pull a guy out of a ravine a few years back that was dangling in his truck over a fairly deep divide at a small bridge crossing. His truck was at a steep angle and his weight on the seat belt wouldn't let it release......I finally got him out, but the truth is that if he hadn't been wearing the seat belt he would have been badly injured or died. A sack of groceries he had on his front seat had gone through the windshield and down the ravine. I'll take my chances with wearing them every time!

Regards!

[Murfy]

The problem, of course, being that (most) people are utterly useless at calculating said risk. We're scared of a lot of very unlikely things happening to us, while feeling perfectly safe while e.g driving - which is probably the most dangerous thing most people ever do.

my reference is more with food allergies, and the phrase that used most often in that circle,, so I may have rolled that off casually. if I dont take some type of calculated risk, we would never be able to eat anything (my daughter is anaphylactic to non top 8 allergens, so we have to hedge a feeling, with some information that we can get because companies wont share it, along with my research and others experience) driving is in generally risky, usng phones while driving, even worse.

[Ratmagiclady]

From ages six to eight, I used to sit on my dad's lap when he worked the pedals in out 1976 Volare -- you know, with the steering column that goes straight into the engine compartment and no air bags -- and steer the car. Mostly on side streets, but on a few two-lane highways sometimes. This country has an unhealthy obsession with car seats.

Uh, no we don't. Even if there'd been airbags in 76 Volares that really wouldn't help a kid. Even apart from that sort of thing parents used to do, in even a modest crash, the g's make a child 'weigh' far more than anyone can hold onto.

The reality lies somewhere between industry advertising/being happy to change standards so people can't keep using the same ones forever, and actual safety improvement/people really wanting to protect their kids better.

(As for 'whether anyone should be wearing seatbelts at all,' particularly on the basis 'Just don't crash,' I'll point out (like my Da that taught me some pursuit driving,) that crash avoidance isn't really up to you if you aren't entirely behind the wheel and in control of the vehicle. (Kind of how he sold me on using the things when we first got a car with shoulder belts, he was basically like, "You're going to like this, actually." (for that reason. Doesn't really feel right driving without being strapped in any more than I'd do that flying an airplane. )

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Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 06-22-2015 at 10:29 AM.

[condor27596]

Somehow this has gone WAY off course. Just a re iteration of what I am saying:

1. My daughter is 5 and qualifies for a booster seat. She currently remains in the full recaro 5 point harness baby seat.

2. Although she qualifies for a booster and the momma used a booster I will keep her in the full baby seat until she exceeds the safety limits of size or weight for that seat.

3. My proposal is not one of no seatbelt or no baby seat etc. my proposal is one of choice
A. A normal seatbelt plus a booster seat.
B. A normal size 5 point racing harness for the back seat. But no booster seat.

It still seems to me that the lower you sit in the car, behind more metal, the safer you become. A booster seat puts you way up too high. The purpose of a booster seat ( I read ) is so that a normal lap belt does not chop off the head.

My conclusion is that if you do not use a lap belt but instead upgrade to a 5 point racing harness ( those do not chop off the head they are the same as in a baby seat ) you no longer need a booster seat.

You therefore sit 4-5 inches lower in the car ( seems safer) and have the increased ( seems better anyway ) safety of the 5 point harness over the normal lap and shoulder belt.

[monochrome]

If we're really trying to reduce personal injuries and deaths, the most common cause of injury and death, according to decades of emergency room visits, is falling down stairs in the home.

"Most common home accidents happened when walking up or down the stairs. Broken hands and legs are the usualy resulting injuries to an estimate of 2,324,938 people."

By contrast
"In the United States during 2011, more than 650 children ages 12 years and younger died as occupants in motor vehicle crashes, and more than 148,000 were injured."

Now I know I showed stair-use injuries for all people versus auto-use injuries only for children, but you see my point. Stairs are maore dangerous than cars!!!

Consequently we should mandate all new dwelling units be single-storey, and before title to a pre-existing dwelling unit changes hands said older dwelling unit must be retrofitted with some form of stair-use safety device.

And license all stair users. We license drivers, so why not license really dangerous activities like using stairs?

After all, it's for the children.

And it will hold down the cost of health care.

[Ratmagiclady]

If we're really trying to reduce personal injuries and deaths, the most common cause of injury and death, according to decades of emergency room visits, is falling down stairs in the home.

"Most common home accidents happened when walking up or down the stairs. Broken hands and legs are the usualy resulting injuries to an estimate of 2,324,938 people."

By contrast
"In the United States during 2011, more than 650 children ages 12 years and younger died as occupants in motor vehicle crashes, and more than 148,000 were injured."

Now I know I showed stair-use injuries for all people versus auto-use injuries only for children, but you see my point. Stairs are maore dangerous than cars!!!

Consequently we should mandate all new dwelling units be single-storey, and before title to a pre-existing dwelling unit changes hands said older dwelling unit must be retrofitted with some form of stair-use safety device.

And license all stair users. We license drivers, so why not license really dangerous activities like using stairs?

After all, it's for the children.

And it will hold down the cost of health care.

Well, I don't see the reasoning there, ...it's kind of like saying, "You're more likely to get hurt in the bathtub so unless we ban bathing we may as well walk on picket fences." (I mean as a matter of fact, though, stair safety requirements *are* mandatory: they're in the building codes. )

(As for Condor's question, I suppose you may as well use the fancy Recaro seat till she's too big and *then* see if you want to fit any fancier harness, particularly since it doesn't sound like doing without a booster seat of any sort won't be an option legally for a while yet.

[wombat2go]

Hi Condor,
There are larger seats available with 5 point harness which have the headrest adjustable and can take up to 90 pounds.
After that the harness is removed and the vehicle's belt is constrained to be in the correct position. Then it is good for up to 120 pounds
The one we had ( I think Britax) used the standard latch system which is quite secure, espcially if the vehicle has the upper rear attachment

I think a DIY solution of adapting a racing harness would have problems, both technical and in liability.

[DeadJohn]

@monochrome, I assume you're being sarcastic, but what's your point? Are you trying to say that we shouldn't have car safety standards or require drivers to have licenses?

And we do have stair "licenses". Not for the users, but for the architects and constructors. There are building codes to mandate the run and rise. Poorly designed stairs are much tougher to climb than a properly designed staircase.

[condor27596]

Great point. The recaro holds up to 90 pounds. As a side note I didn't get it because the name is cool , it was just one of two seats that fit the car I had at the time.

[wombat2go]

it was just one of two seats that fit the car I had at the time.

Yes with 2 boys and 2 cars, I spent quite a bit of that hard earned on car seats. Thay have a use by date too, so they end up as land fill.

It all ends when they start to worry about their peers seeing them in a "baby seat"

[monochrome]

"Safety" is mostly about forcefully protecting you from your own user error.

Of course I'm exaggerating but not sarcastically. Autos have as many government mandated design standards as anything yet we don't trust the users. Despite your protestations to the contrary stair use licensing is an apt illustration of how we will eventually take these sseemingly sensible intrusions to the ridiculous extreme.

[mohb]

"Safety" is mostly about forcefully protecting you from your own user error.

Child seats protect children from adults.

[Murfy]

Somehow this has gone WAY off course. Just a re iteration of what I am saying:

1. My daughter is 5 and qualifies for a booster seat. She currently remains in the full recaro 5 point harness baby seat.

2. Although she qualifies for a booster and the momma used a booster I will keep her in the full baby seat until she exceeds the safety limits of size or weight for that seat.

3. My proposal is not one of no seatbelt or no baby seat etc. my proposal is one of choice
A. A normal seatbelt plus a booster seat.
B. A normal size 5 point racing harness for the back seat. But no booster seat.
.

The law in my state is booster seat until age 8 or 4'9" in height. They just removed the weight requirement. So again,check with your state laws. Otherwise I am not sure what your proposal is because current recommendations are normal seat belt with booster, if your child can handle being in a booster that is, mine can not, it gave them too much freedom but here a lot of people had kids in booster seats at the age of 4.

My tiny 4 year old is still in a 5 point harness booster/front facing baby seat, and she will be in it a long time because she is only 30 pounds. you can do up to 65 pounds in the 5 point harness and then 110 pounds in the booster, I have an evenflo symphony. I think it also lasts 9 or 12 years before it 'expires'

[condor27596]

Thanks for that insight. I now realize it will be an issue soon about being in a " baby seat ".