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04-10-2018, 12:56 PM   #961
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QuoteOriginally posted by Canada_Rockies Quote
Electric cars are fine in warm cities. They are fine for short shopping trips. They are not suited to cold climates. They are not suited for sparsely inhabited areas with long, long distances between inhabited areas.

They are not at all suited for areas of our country (Canada) where temperatures can stay at and below -40 degrees for months. Battery efficiency is very temperature dependent. When we need heat to even see through the glass to drive, the battery efficiency is marginal at best, and we need energy to warm the glass.

Without using a 1500w block heater to warm the coolant, at -30 degrees, my 4.7L 8 cylinder engine takes a good 5 minutes to apply enough heated air to clear my windshield after I scrape the ice off. Somehow, I don't see the residents of Yellowknife and Inuvik getting by with electric only vehicles. What environmentally acceptable way is there to produce that much electricity when there is no sun for months (Inuvik is at a rather high northern latitude)?
I agree with you. Like you I live in Western Canada and it gets quite cold during the winter. My personal experience in northern Minnesota, North Dakota, Montana, etc...also tells me that it gets very cold in these northern states too. The 'very cold' isn't just restricted to the areas that I have named of course. It gets very cold during the winter in many parts of the world.

Battery power provides motivating power, but also cabin heat and air conditioning in EVs...electric vehicles. Use of of electric juice for heating, air conditioning can significantly affect the mile range electric vehicles can travel without a charge.

Interesting article about how electric vehicles (not hybrids, total electric) function in cold climates.

Motor Mouth: The inconvenient truth about EVs in cold weather | Driving

04-10-2018, 01:34 PM   #962
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^^ If you knew what was good for you, you wouldn’t live in such a place. We’ll just mandate you move to a city like all the better educated folks have. Because we know better.

Volvo doesn’t care. They’re all-in. And you’ll like it that way.
04-10-2018, 02:03 PM - 1 Like   #963
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
^^ If you knew what was good for you, you wouldn’t live in such a place. We’ll just mandate you move to a city like all the better educated folks have. Because we know better.

Volvo doesn’t care. They’re all-in. And you’ll like it that way.
One of my inherent flaws is that I've never, necessarily 'known what was good for me' throughout my life. If I did know what was good for me, I'd probably have chosen Canikon . It would of been easier that way, but me being me and knowing me...less satisfying than Pentax.

A short while ago we received a mass mailing, constituency report from our local federal representative. His chief message in the newsletter was essentially a lecture to constituents, telling us how we need to think and act, about a particular societal issue . He indicated that activists and advocates tell him that constituents need to think and act in a certain way. I felt he missed the point of his elected role...which was to work with what constituents thought and believed..not form policy, etc...that reflected what activists and special interest groups wanted.

Full disclosure...when I was a young man I actually owned and drove a '62 Volvo PV544...the one that looked like a '40's Ford Tudor.
04-10-2018, 02:06 PM - 1 Like   #964
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Sounds like he gets it. We drove a 240 Wagon. Canadian made. Tank. Best car ever.


Last edited by monochrome; 04-13-2018 at 12:09 PM.
04-10-2018, 03:48 PM - 1 Like   #965
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
A short while ago we received a mass mailing, constituency report from our local federal representative. His chief message in the newsletter was essentially a lecture to constituents, telling us how we need to think and act, about a particular societal issue
He is exhibiting a basic human trait which is to believe that you yourself are right, other people are wrong, and those people would realise this if only the "facts" were laid before them by your collaring them and making them listen to you.

Politicians are particularly prone to this trait, which is why they always want the microphone and the media attention, and big crowds to listen to them. Personally, I find the more I hear of other people's political views the more I find myself disagreeing with them.

Fact is, people have differing priorities and values, possibly subconcious ones that they are not even directly aware of, or ones they would not care to admit. I am sure for example that most politicians value applause more than principles.
04-10-2018, 06:32 PM   #966
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QuoteOriginally posted by Canada_Rockies Quote
Electric cars are fine in warm cities. They are fine for short shopping trips. They are not suited to cold climates. They are not suited for sparsely inhabited areas with long, long distances between inhabited areas.

They are not at all suited for areas of our country (Canada) where temperatures can stay at and below -40 degrees for months. Battery efficiency is very temperature dependent. When we need heat to even see through the glass to drive, the battery efficiency is marginal at best, and we need energy to warm the glass.

Without using a 1500w block heater to warm the coolant, at -30 degrees, my 4.7L 8 cylinder engine takes a good 5 minutes to apply enough heated air to clear my windshield after I scrape the ice off. Somehow, I don't see the residents of Yellowknife and Inuvik getting by with electric only vehicles. What environmentally acceptable way is there to produce that much electricity when there is no sun for months (Inuvik is at a rather high northern latitude)?

Yeah, I didn't think about you guys way up North. Man, I've had problems with my cameras batteries getting cold before. I can imagine a whole car conking out!

Actually, if the greenies want to move us off petroleum based fuels, there is really only one alternative: Hydrogen. It's plentiful, it should be cheap enough, and cars run great on it. What comes out of the tailpipe? You guessed it. Water vapor.
04-11-2018, 09:52 AM   #967
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QuoteOriginally posted by cooltouch Quote
Yeah, I didn't think about you guys way up North. Man, I've had problems with my cameras batteries getting cold before. I can imagine a whole car conking out!

Actually, if the greenies want to move us off petroleum based fuels, there is really only one alternative: Hydrogen. It's plentiful, it should be cheap enough, and cars run great on it. What comes out of the tailpipe? You guessed it. Water vapor.
I would accept that, provided that there were enough recharging stations for the hydrogen used in the fuel cells. Then you get the advantages of electric power and easy and rapid refueling.

Won't that drive the greenies crazy worrying about pipelines full of hydrogen ...

04-11-2018, 12:31 PM - 1 Like   #968
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QuoteOriginally posted by cooltouch Quote
Yeah, I didn't think about you guys way up North. Man, I've had problems with my cameras batteries getting cold before. I can imagine a whole car conking out!

Actually, if the greenies want to move us off petroleum based fuels, there is really only one alternative: Hydrogen. It's plentiful, it should be cheap enough, and cars run great on it. What comes out of the tailpipe? You guessed it. Water vapor.


The problem with hydrogen is that it exists in nature in forms that need a lot of energy to convert it into other forms that make it useful for automotive fuel. Gasoline... you run crude oil though a (insert refinery thing) and out comes mostly stable, highly energy-dense liquid. Hydrogen you need to get from, say, splitting up water molecules, which takes a lot of energy, then you have to highly compress the resulting gas into a tank which takes even more energy.


Maybe you can figure out a way to make the hydrogen cycle as efficient as either pumping and refining oil or wind/solar, but I don't think we're anywhere close yet.
04-11-2018, 12:41 PM - 2 Likes   #969
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Gasoline is the most cost-efficient portable storage medium for therms known to man. Which gives us liberty and autonomy. Which bothers autocrats. Which leads to denigrating gasoline as a climate risk.

Rinse repeat.
04-11-2018, 01:02 PM - 1 Like   #970
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Gasoline is the most cost-efficient portable storage medium for therms known to man. Which gives us liberty and autonomy. Which bothers autocrats. Which leads to denigrating gasoline as a climate risk.

Rinse repeat.
It may bother autocrats. But that doesn't change the fact that burning billions upon billions of gallons of the stuff has a ton negative consequences.

04-11-2018, 01:44 PM   #971
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QuoteOriginally posted by Just1MoreDave Quote
This is already be affecting Prius owners, and there are already lots of aftermarket options. About $1400 do-it-yourself depending on the Prius year. Similar for a Honda hybrid. The Porsche 918 probably needs to be sent back to the factory, where a team of 8 disassembles the car completely to do it. Just two months and $78,000 for the job.



Electric cars solve a lot of problems for manufacturers. A few years ago, they'd make a small diesel, which would allow them to advertise a great fuel economy number and meet all kinds of standards for economy and emissions. Today, that costs too much, and probably the engine will be banned in half of European cities. Just make it all-electric and they cut out the certification costs and delays entirely. Plus it's a worldwide market now, so it really matters what the Chinese regulations might be.
If you bought a Hyundai Hybrid and don't sell it, any battery replacement is on them for as long as you own the car. Mileage is not a consideration, nor is age. Since I have historically gotten a new car at between 3 and 6 years, this is a motivator for me to keep my Sonata Hybrid. That and the fact that it has been super reliable and comfortable are also factors in my plan to keep it.
04-11-2018, 02:37 PM   #972
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
The problem with hydrogen is that it exists in nature in forms that need a lot of energy to ..... make it useful Maybe you can figure out a way to make the hydrogen cycle as efficient as either pumping and refining oil or wind/solar, but I don't think we're anywhere close yet.
Indeed. There is no comparison between hydrogen and oil/wind/coal/solar/nuclear, the latter being primary sources of energy. Hydrogen does not occur freely in nature (on Earth anyway) so is a secondary energy medium more equivalent to electricity in batteries or compressed air in cylinders; it is a way of storing and transporting energy that has been prepared by primary means. Creating hydrogen is a manufacturing process that consumes more energy (with whatever issues creating that energy involves) than the subsequent hydrogen offers. Like with electricity and compressed air, the energy conversion efficiency will be somewhat less than 100%.

You might as well say that running cars on compressed air would solve our energy problems (I've heard it said). On top of that, hydrogen has hair-raising safety issues. Stored hydrogen will not be going anywhere as a vehicle fuel.
04-11-2018, 06:21 PM - 1 Like   #973
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
The problem with hydrogen is that it exists in nature in forms that need a lot of energy to convert it into other forms that make it useful for automotive fuel. Gasoline... you run crude oil though a (insert refinery thing) and out comes mostly stable, highly energy-dense liquid. Hydrogen you need to get from, say, splitting up water molecules, which takes a lot of energy, then you have to highly compress the resulting gas into a tank which takes even more energy.


Maybe you can figure out a way to make the hydrogen cycle as efficient as either pumping and refining oil or wind/solar, but I don't think we're anywhere close yet.
Seems to me one way to go about licking the problem of extracting hydrogen from the environment would be to let nature do it. What's the chance we might be able to design a bacterium that would do all the hard work for us? At any rate, coming up with a way of economical production of H2 is "merely an engineering problem" the way I see it.

People tend to freak out over the idea of stored hydrogen. I suspect it's because of the Hindenburg disaster. But one thing about hydrogen when it burns, unlike fossil fuels, is you have ignition, a bang, and then nothing. Fossil fuels tend to dribble on messily for a long time after the ignition point. The only reason why there was messy dribblings on with the Hindenburg disaster was because of the dirigible itself burning, not the hydrogen.
04-13-2018, 04:24 AM   #974
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QuoteOriginally posted by cooltouch Quote
Seems to me one way to go about licking the problem of extracting hydrogen from the environment would be to let nature do it. What's the chance we might be able to design a bacterium that would do all the hard work for us? At any rate, coming up with a way of economical production of H2 is "merely an engineering problem" the way I see it.


Maybe. The solution that's often thrown around is using solar to electrolyze water to make hydrogen and oxygen. But if you're going to do that, why not just use the solar to charge batteries? I'm reasonably sure that has higher conversion efficiencies even if it's somewhat slower from an end-user perspective.
04-14-2018, 04:17 AM   #975
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
It may bother autocrats. But that doesn't change the fact that burning billions upon billions of gallons of the stuff has a ton negative consequences.
there is a fairly amusing film released a few years ago called : " Kingsman: The Secret Service "

Kingsman: The Secret Service (2014) - IMDb

which used as its plot the fact that some considered Man to be a virus affecting the globe and that only a culling of the " virus " was the sole way to save the world for the " chosen " survivors

" When you get a virus, you get a fever. That's the human body raising its core temperature to kill the virus. Planet Earth works the same way: Global warming is the fever, mankind is the virus. We're making our planet sick. A cull is our only hope. If we don't reduce our population ourselves, there's only one of two ways this can go: The host kills the virus, or the virus kills the host. Either way.." - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2802144/quotes/?tab=qt&ref_=tt_trv_qu

You cannot refute that Man has changed the planet and continues to do so


It may be too late to change that fact

and to some that is alarming, others seem to ignore the science and others hope that science will allow Man to escape a worn out world in future

____________________________________________________________________

all I know is that after having put 2,000 miles on the 2016 GMC Acadia Denali since we bought it 30 days or so ago, I like it a lot

the safety systems are down right amazing ( although I haven't tested the air bags ) the forward facing anti collision warning camera, the rear facing " reverse " camera, the lane change warning ( irritating since the steering is " soft " and the vehicle tends to " drift " a little causing the alarm to sound ) and the blind spot warning system are all very helpful. I really like the HUD

the gas mileage is acceptable but I still have a problem thinking it is lower than it is because I don't get the range I got with the Suburban ( the 2002 Suburban replaced by the GMC had a 32 gallon tank and the GMC tops out at 22 gallons ) but that is my fault

since the GMC is physically smaller, I don't have the cargo room I did but if I lower all or part ( 60 - 40 split ) rear seat, I have all I really need and still can haul 4 ( capacity is suppose to be 7 with that seat up )

any way who buys an SUV for gas mileage any way

Last edited by aslyfox; 04-14-2018 at 01:14 PM.
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