[MarkJerling]

Have to do everything myself to be discrete, as I was officially declared dead since two years ago at least. I was supposed to have been fed to a tiger in a zoo among other theories, although I had not heard that one before :-

Lord Lucan 'shot himself and was fed to a tiger in zoo' - Telegraph

Come on Lucky, we all know you've been in Africa all these years. I'm sure I saw you lurking in the distance at Aspinall's Cape Town estate.

[kadajawi]

kadajawi, regarding the amorphous shape of hatchbacks, one needs only to look at the new Mini -- called the "Hardtop 4-Door" here in the US. It's a four-door Mini! Which seems to be very oxymoronic to me, but there ya go. Plus it has the hatch. One thing it does have going for it is it is a very compact four-door hatchback. Scarcely bigger than the 2-door in looks. Here in the US, I don't know whether people will view it as a hatchback or a compact wagon. I suspect the former because, with a wagon, folks are expecting to find quite a bit of room behind the rear seats, and this car has a hatchback's roominess back there, not a wagon's. So I guess the argument is that this Mini is a 5-door hatchback. So there ya go.

The Mini is odd anyway They've taken one very small car, and turned it into everything but a small car. As long as people buy them, I guess? The hardtop 4-door looks like a hatchback to me. And it's not even that short, IMHO.

Once they reach USA many car models that start out small often tend to grow in size and weight with each succeeding redesign.
There are good reasons for this. Americans typically drive longer distances and so prefer the comfort of a larger car, and we have usually had relatively cheap gas.

Surely you must remember how small Toyotas and Hondas were when first imported here.
When I watch NHK I am still surprised how small the average car in Japan is even today.

I think Bruce McCall's "Bulgemobiles" capture perfectly the essence of Americans tendency to automotive excess:

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2015/07/27/on-the-bloat-of-extravagance-satire-in-automotive-renderings/

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/here-are-some-humorous-illustrations-by-bruce-mccall-h-1633457775

Chris

The main thing I believe is parking space. In the US, parking is probably not much of an issue? In Europe, or especially places like Tokyo it is. Of course Europeans also want to drive around in comfort (though you don't need a big car for that), but it's not comfortable if you have to search forever to find a place to park your car, and then park far away from your destination. Besides, cars like my Golf are decent long distance cruisers. I can drive for hours at 180 (around 110 mph) without fatigue... though to be comfortable it needs to be driven at such higher speeds. Drive slower, and the suspension is a bit stiff. But once you go fast...

[cooltouch]

..... a 4" pothole in fact. No problem finding those in the UK these days, it has become a national scandal, and don't you have sleeping policemen (aka speed humps) in Texas?

Long ago I had a car with about 4" ground clearance (a Triumph 2000 if you know it) and it would bottom out sometimes on a good surface where a side road on a hill joined a main road at an angle.

Sure we have speed bumps. They're all over the place here in Houston. The V90 handled them ok. You just had to slow down to almost a dead stop to go over them, though. The situation you described with your Triumph 2000 is one we had to watch out for with the V90 or we might scrape something. Heh, reminds me of a Jensen Healey I used to own. I hit an uneven piece of roadwork with that car one time and it yanked the exhaust system free of the header downpipe. I had to drive it about 20 miles to get home with wide open exhaust. You wouldn't think that a little 2 liter motor could be so loud, but man-o-man was it ever! Fortunately, I didn't have to replace the exhaust -- it had just been pulled loose (it used the U-bolts instead of being welded).

[ChrisPlatt]

Ah yes, I remember; they called them ground effects, didn't they?
I still see pieces of them littering the side of the road...

Chris

[monochrome]

I dunno Chris. I just attribute it to something akin to bloat. It's not just imports that tend to bloat with each passing model year. Take a look at the Ford Mustang, for example. When it debuted in 1965 (mid-year 1964 actually), it was a fairly compact car. But with each successive redesign, it got bigger, until by the early 70s it was an overweight pig. The only thing that saved it (in some folks estimation, at least) was a complete redesign, called the Mustang II -- and then suddenly it was even smaller than the original. But this was brought on by the sudden rise in gasoline prices -- a powerful set of market forces that required the change. But absent the market forces -- or ever intrusive government regulations -- bloat seems to be in a manufacturer's DNA.

The original Mustang was built on the Ford Falcon chassis, so it was naturally small. When Mustang had sold 1,000,000 it got its own chassis and separate platform (shared with Mercury Cougar). That platform was eventually discontinued and the Mustang II was built on the Ford Maverick platform, so it was small again.

These changes were driven by manufacturing process decisions and attempts to minimize costs per unit by maximizing the number of platform units sold. Unit volume drives platform decisions. Building various models on a single base platform is a finance decision that car designers hate.

The current Honda Accord is built on a stretched Honda Civic platform. So is the current CRV. The 6-cyl. engine was deleted as an Accord option because the Civic platform can’t accommodate the weight, and it isn’t fuel economy. The old V-6 with ECO Mode got better mileage than the 4. Honda only sold 35,000 6-cyl. Accords here anyway. They claim the VTEC 2.0 Liter Turbo 4 252 HP is just as powerful but I don’t agree. It feels buzzy and the torque curve is front-loaded. I made them go get the keys to the 2012 Accord I was going to trade in and drove it home. That was one unhappy salesman.

[cooltouch]

Monochrome, I certainly can't dispute anything you've written. But as an automotive enthusiast, it sure as hell doesn't make me like it. Your second paragraph explains the ultimate reason why many a model has been discontinued -- because people didn't want them anymore because they had become ill-performing pigs. Bean counters should not be allowed to participate in decisions that require engineers -- and enthusiasts! -- to make.

What you mention about Honda reminds me of a couple of things. First, Honda should have never discontinued the CVCC engine and the small cars that they were installed in (look at what an old Civic from the 70s sells for these days!) Second, it reminds me of Volvo's most recent power plant decision. I've been a Volvo owner for over 20 years. I can recall, back in the 80s, that for the 760, which was Volvo's top-end model, two power plants were offered -- a V6 and an I-4 turbo. The smart buyers bought the 2.3L Turbo because it was faster than the larger V6. That seemed to work well for them to the extent that Volvo appears to be taking a page out of its old playbook. Now Volvo has reduced its engine selection from three basic sizes -- a 2.5L turbo, a 3.2L i-6, and a V8, to one -- a 2.0L twin turbo. Regardless of vehicle size, Volvo will be offering *only* this one engine size. I can understand their thinking to a point. I mean, when you can extract over 300 reliable horsepower from a 2.0L 4 cylinder, is anything else really necessary? Well, ask me, the answer is yes. Hell yes. If Volvo can offer a 300+ hp 4-cyl, then why not a 400hp 6-cyl? or a 500hp 8cyl? Some people might say that such performance numbers aren't in keeping with Volvo's image. Well, Volvo has, since the 80s at least, always been something of a dichotomy on wheels. They've always promoted safety, but they've also always had this wild streak, typically most often seen with their performance wagons. Volvo has even raced wagons! So I don't see why they can't still stress safety as well as performance -- the way Mercedes Benz does, for example. I suppose time will tell, but I think limiting themselves to only a single engine size across all platforms is a mistake.

[lesmore49]

Monochrome, I certainly can't dispute anything you've written. But as an automotive enthusiast, it sure as hell doesn't make me like it. Your second paragraph explains the ultimate reason why many a model has been discontinued -- because people didn't want them anymore because they had become ill-performing pigs. Bean counters should not be allowed to participate in decisions that require engineers -- and enthusiasts! -- to make.

What you mention about Honda reminds me of a couple of things. First, Honda should have never discontinued the CVCC engine and the small cars that they were installed in (look at what an old Civic from the 70s sells for these days!) Second, it reminds me of Volvo's most recent power plant decision. I've been a Volvo owner for over 20 years. I can recall, back in the 80s, that for the 760, which was Volvo's top-end model, two power plants were offered -- a V6 and an I-4 turbo. The smart buyers bought the 2.3L Turbo because it was faster than the larger V6. That seemed to work well for them to the extent that Volvo appears to be taking a page out of its old playbook. Now Volvo has reduced its engine selection from three basic sizes -- a 2.5L turbo, a 3.2L i-6, and a V8, to one -- a 2.0L twin turbo. Regardless of vehicle size, Volvo will be offering *only* this one engine size. I can understand their thinking to a point. I mean, when you can extract over 300 reliable horsepower from a 2.0L 4 cylinder, is anything else really necessary? Well, ask me, the answer is yes. Hell yes. If Volvo can offer a 300+ hp 4-cyl, then why not a 400hp 6-cyl? or a 500hp 8cyl? Some people might say that such performance numbers aren't in keeping with Volvo's image. Well, Volvo has, since the 80s at least, always been something of a dichotomy on wheels. They've always promoted safety, but they've also always had this wild streak, typically most often seen with their performance wagons. Volvo has even raced wagons! So I don't see why they can't still stress safety as well as performance -- the way Mercedes Benz does, for example. I suppose time will tell, but I think limiting themselves to only a single engine size across all platforms is a mistake.

As a former Volvo owner (1962 PV544s ) I read your post with interest. It does on the surface seem odd that Volvo is offering one engine size, a 2 liter 4 cylinder.

I've noticed Chevy with it's Equinox dropped the 3.6 liter DOHC V6 (great engine one our cars has this engine) and only offer 4 cylinder engines. If memory serves me correct a 1.5 liter turbo, a 2 liter turbo and a turbo diesel...all 4 bangers.

Lately I've been reading a fair amount about the coming electrification of powerplants over the next number of years, from many vehicle manufacturers. Some seem to mention that they plan to offer complete electric, hybrid electric/ internal combustion (IC) blend, less diesels , mostly 4 cylinder engines.

There seems to be significant change of propulsion power for vehicles over the next decade or so. My impression is that electric and hybrid (electric/IC) vehicles will take over the market and be the dominant powerplants.

I understand Volvo will go electric or electric/internal combustion starting with the 2019 model year...no more Volvos just solely powered by an internal combustion engine. That I think explains why Volvo will have only one internal combustion engine and that engine will always be part of a hybrid..electric motor/internal combustion engine combo. Given this they need only one remaining internal combustion engine. My view anyways,

I have some questions..as to how all this will work out.

Currently we have two large American sedans one older (2007)...one newer (2015). Both have larger displacement V6 engines. My driving preference is a large sedan with a healthy V6 engine. Unfortunately I seem to be a minority when it comes to my preference for a large sedan with a V6 engine. In the future I'm quite sure, that it will be increasingly difficult, perhaps near impossible to find an vehicle such as this. Both large V6 engines and large sedans (the older car is a 6 seater ) are both endangered species.

---

Last edited by lesmore49; 04-08-2018 at 09:44 PM.

[cooltouch]

You know this whole hybrid business has really been going through some interesting developments over the past couple of years. Now the way it is, the most high performance vehicles you can buy today are hybrids. Supercars with 800+ hp, and this number is possible because of the combined hp of both the gas and electric motors. So there's no reason why hybrids have to be Priuses. They can be firebreathing monsters like the new Porsche -- what? -- the 918 is it? Yeah, these cars cost the better part of several hundred thousand dollars, but there's no reason why your more sensibly priced cars can't be playing around with 400-500 hp because of hybrid technology.

My biggest question with hybrids has always been a simple one. How much is it gonna cost a hybrid owner when it comes time to replace the batteries?

[Canada_Rockies]

Yeah, I've got the IPD load-levelling springs sitting right here, apparently the right setup is to pair em with Bilstein HD shocks, (which I have a used pair of that I'll be putting on when I get a chance. I'd sorta been stalling in part hoping to get a fresh pair, but yaknow. ) Supposedly they keep stock height, which may be a bit higher than the reality of my old stock springs.

Like geezers like me, old springs do sag some.

[monochrome]

Beginning in 2023 Volvo won’t offer any Internal Combustion Engines at all. None. Those who know what’s good for us are going to take away gasoline whether we like it or not.

Next to be sunseted will be intependenty driven vehicles. They’ll be prohibited by mandate by 2030. People are just too unpredictable for autonomous cars to deal with, so those who know what’s good for us are going to take away steering wheels whether we like it or not. Ricoh SmartVision is already positioning Theta 360 technology for this.

Trust me. This is real, and it will happen.

[dadipentak]

Trust me. This is real, and it will happen.

Oh well--the kids will have pried the keys from my feeble hands by then anyway.

[monochrome]

Oh well--the kids will have pried the keys from my feeble hands by then anyway.

Next up - beef cattle. They generate a lot of Methane. By 2025 beef cattle will be bigger polluters than autos. We’ll all be eating tofu burgers because raising beef cattle will be made prohibitively expensive. .

[cooltouch]

Not in Texas! I think we'd secede first.

Beginning in 2023 Volvo won’t offer any Internal Combustion Engines at all. None.

That would be a rather large mistake. Like film cameras, internal combustion engines will still be around for a long time. Electric cars are false economics.

[Canada_Rockies]

Not in Texas! I think we'd secede first.



That would be a rather large mistake. Like film cameras, internal combustion engines will still be around for a long time. Electric cars are false economics.

Electric cars are fine in warm cities. They are fine for short shopping trips. They are not suited to cold climates. They are not suited for sparsely inhabited areas with long, long distances between inhabited areas.

They are not at all suited for areas of our country (Canada) where temperatures can stay at and below -40 degrees for months. Battery efficiency is very temperature dependent. When we need heat to even see through the glass to drive, the battery efficiency is marginal at best, and we need energy to warm the glass.

Without using a 1500w block heater to warm the coolant, at -30 degrees, my 4.7L 8 cylinder engine takes a good 5 minutes to apply enough heated air to clear my windshield after I scrape the ice off. Somehow, I don't see the residents of Yellowknife and Inuvik getting by with electric only vehicles. What environmentally acceptable way is there to produce that much electricity when there is no sun for months (Inuvik is at a rather high northern latitude)?

[Just1MoreDave]

...My biggest question with hybrids has always been a simple one. How much is it gonna cost a hybrid owner when it comes time to replace the batteries?

This is already be affecting Prius owners, and there are already lots of aftermarket options. About $1400 do-it-yourself depending on the Prius year. Similar for a Honda hybrid. The Porsche 918 probably needs to be sent back to the factory, where a team of 8 disassembles the car completely to do it. Just two months and $78,000 for the job.

Electric cars are false economics.

Electric cars solve a lot of problems for manufacturers. A few years ago, they'd make a small diesel, which would allow them to advertise a great fuel economy number and meet all kinds of standards for economy and emissions. Today, that costs too much, and probably the engine will be banned in half of European cities. Just make it all-electric and they cut out the certification costs and delays entirely. Plus it's a worldwide market now, so it really matters what the Chinese regulations might be.