[Ratmagiclady]

I would accept that, provided that there were enough recharging stations for the hydrogen used in the fuel cells. Then you get the advantages of electric power and easy and rapid refueling.

Won't that drive the greenies crazy worrying about pipelines full of hydrogen ...

Actually, the great thing about hydrogen is that if you have a leak, it goes *up* and doesn't screw up your groundwater and crops. A pipeline might or might not be more efficient than, say, cooling the stuff down to liquid and shipping it in rail tankers or whatnot, though, or transmitting whatever energy to some more decentralized cracking facilities. Some places, like Iceland, have all that geothermal energy to tap, and the energy efficiency on energy that'd otherwise not get stored at *all* isn't so much a concern.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that apart from small countries we won't see anything like a complete changeover to electric, never mind in twelve years, and even there any actual transition would take a lot longer. People tend to forget entirely about the used car market, and even now there just aren't enough electric cars in existence to filter on down to most of the people in the world in that short a time, even if all the batteries were still up to snuff as of then.

Really I think that if people used the electrics for their daily commutes and in towns and small cities where they really make sense, it'd just make life better for everyone and what internal combustion applications are still out there will be way down the priority list of how to un-*ahem* the planet.

And I think Volvo going all-in on electrics and the like has a lot to do with the fact they've been kind of flailing around for marketshare for some years. (And just after they devised a lagless turbo system, too, pity. ) but it probably really makes sense for them to try to get ahead of the industry while the getting's good.

---

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 04-14-2018 at 01:11 PM.

[aslyfox]

. . . People tend to freak out over the idea of stored hydrogen. I suspect it's because of the Hindenburg disaster. But one thing about hydrogen when it burns, unlike fossil fuels, is you have ignition, a bang, and then nothing. Fossil fuels tend to dribble on messily for a long time after the ignition point. The only reason why there was messy dribblings on with the Hindenburg disaster was because of the dirigible itself burning, not the hydrogen.

isn't an explosion a result of something burning which is contained causing gas buildup ?

in other words, if a tank holding hydrogen is ignited somehow, the rapid burning and expansion of the gas contained in the tank causes an explosion?

I know that years ago when I was doing revolutionary war reenactment, the black powder can had a " weak " seal so that if the black powder burned, the seal would release and the black powder would burn and the resulting gases would be released without an explosion

it is the explosive release of the confined gases what bothers me, not residue ( except for the shrapnel from the container of course )

[Racer X 69]

Not my ride, but some years it sure would be fun! Not necessary this year but maybe for last year's 12+ feet of snow.


These tread kits are getting more common, more reliable, and more affordable!

Always been in awe of those track conversions. What a great way to get off the beaten path in the winter.


I bet you can still get it stuck though.

[ChrisPlatt]

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hmn/2011/02/1958-Ford-Nucleon/3695241.html

Chris

[kadajawi]

As for the it's too cold for electric cars reasoning: Norway is full of electric cars. I think they know a thing or two about cold weather. It's all an infrastructure thing, IMHO. If you can charge up your car anywhere, it's not a big issue. You park your car to go shopping, you plug it in. As it's plugged in, and probably has an internet connection, you could tell the car to warm up before you arrive there.

Setting up the infrastructure needed for electric cars should be much easier than for hydrogen or anything else, really. All you need is a strong enough power socket, and a place where you can place the charger (which doesn't take up much space, and in the grand scheme of things is much cheaper than a proper petrol station. A Tesla Supercharger Station is supposed to cost between 100.000 and 270.000 USD, while a hydrogen station would cost around 3 million USD. The only advantage hydrogen has there is that you need fewer of these stations. However, you could place single chargers everywhere around town, so you don't actually have to go out of your way to get your car filled up. And home owners with garage have no issue charging at home, which, if the range is big enough, is already enough to cover all their needs.

My big issue with electric is that it is a good solution for SOME use cases. However if you're not doing many miles, on a very predictable route (that is you stay within the range of the car, or can conveniently charge it up mid way), then it may not make sense. These batteries use valuable materials and are very expensive. Wasting them on a car that rarely gets driven could be worse for the environment than even the worst truck. Petrol cars (or hydrogen, perhaps) make much more sense here. Or long distance drivers. If you have to charge the car several times a day, which requires you to take a break, and you have to drive slower anyway because driving fast really isn't the specialty of electric cars, it just don't make much sense. With a modern diesel, I can easily do 1000 km before refilling it. Or drive significantly faster and refill it every 700-800 km... (a Golf 7 TDI 2.0 will do around 7-8 liter around 180-200 km/h, IIRC). Do that in a Tesla, and you'll be charging every 150-200 km probably, if you can even go that far, and if the electric drive train and battery pack won't overheat.

[lesmore49]

As for the it's too cold for electric cars reasoning: Norway is full of electric cars. I think they know a thing or two about cold weather. It's all an infrastructure thing, IMHO. If you can charge up your car anywhere, it's not a big issue. You park your car to go shopping, you plug it in. As it's plugged in, and probably has an internet connection, you could tell the car to warm up before you arrive there.

Setting up the infrastructure needed for electric cars should be much easier than for hydrogen or anything else, really. All you need is a strong enough power socket, and a place where you can place the charger (which doesn't take up much space, and in the grand scheme of things is much cheaper than a proper petrol station. A Tesla Supercharger Station is supposed to cost between 100.000 and 270.000 USD, while a hydrogen station would cost around 3 million USD. The only advantage hydrogen has there is that you need fewer of these stations. However, you could place single chargers everywhere around town, so you don't actually have to go out of your way to get your car filled up. And home owners with garage have no issue charging at home, which, if the range is big enough, is already enough to cover all their needs.

My big issue with electric is that it is a good solution for SOME use cases. However if you're not doing many miles, on a very predictable route (that is you stay within the range of the car, or can conveniently charge it up mid way), then it may not make sense. These batteries use valuable materials and are very expensive. Wasting them on a car that rarely gets driven could be worse for the environment than even the worst truck. Petrol cars (or hydrogen, perhaps) make much more sense here. Or long distance drivers. If you have to charge the car several times a day, which requires you to take a break, and you have to drive slower anyway because driving fast really isn't the specialty of electric cars, it just don't make much sense. With a modern diesel, I can easily do 1000 km before refilling it. Or drive significantly faster and refill it every 700-800 km... (a Golf 7 TDI 2.0 will do around 7-8 liter around 180-200 km/h, IIRC). Do that in a Tesla, and you'll be charging every 150-200 km probably, if you can even go that far, and if the electric drive train and battery pack won't overheat.

Parts of Canada get very cold...not just cold. Size is another factor for setting up infrastructure across a country. Norway has 385,203 square Kms. Canada has 9.985 million sq. Kms....that is a significant difference.

[ThorSanchez]

My big issue with electric is that it is a good solution for SOME use cases. However if you're not doing many miles, on a very predictable route (that is you stay within the range of the car, or can conveniently charge it up mid way), then it may not make sense. These batteries use valuable materials and are very expensive. Wasting them on a car that rarely gets driven could be worse for the environment than even the worst truck. Petrol cars (or hydrogen, perhaps) make much more sense here. Or long distance drivers. If you have to charge the car several times a day, which requires you to take a break, and you have to drive slower anyway because driving fast really isn't the specialty of electric cars, it just don't make much sense. With a modern diesel, I can easily do 1000 km before refilling it. Or drive significantly faster and refill it every 700-800 km... (a Golf 7 TDI 2.0 will do around 7-8 liter around 180-200 km/h, IIRC). Do that in a Tesla, and you'll be charging every 150-200 km probably, if you can even go that far, and if the electric drive train and battery pack won't overheat.

Perhaps you live in Germany and can drive 180-200 km/h (or 112-125 mph), but here in the US that'll get you thrown in jail in all 50 states. I think a Tesla will get you 200+ km at the maximum legal speeds here, which are 70-80 mph. On the east coast you'll be lucky to find a limit over 70 mph, although traffic is often moving a bit higher.


And I have my doubts that a Model S or a Model 3 is worse for the environment than the hundreds of 20-30 year old heavy trucks you see on the road here every day, belching out great quantities of black smoke and designed to 1980s diesel emissions requirements.

[aslyfox]

Perhaps you live in Germany and can drive 180-200 km/h (or 112-125 mph), but here in the US that'll get you thrown in jail in all 50 states. I think a Tesla will get you 200+ km at the maximum legal speeds here, which are 70-80 mph. On the east coast you'll be lucky to find a limit over 70 mph, although traffic is often moving a bit higher.


And I have my doubts that a Model S or a Model 3 is worse for the environment than the hundreds of 20-30 year old heavy trucks you see on the road here every day, belching out great quantities of black smoke and designed to 1980s diesel emissions requirements.

speed limits in the US vary from State to State

Speed limits in the United States - Wikipedia

and locations within the States

at one time, I heard that some western states had no speed limits

of course, it also depends on what the LEO wants to let go

when I bought my Audi A5 coupe, the dealer wanted to know if I wanted to move up to a S5

when told the difference was that the A 5 was only rated for 140 MPH and the S 5 was rated higher ( turbo charged 4 vs. V 6 ) , I laughed and said

and where do I get to drive that fast??

[ThorSanchez]

speed limits in the US vary from State to State

Speed limits in the United States - Wikipedia

and locations within the States

at one time, I heard that some western states had no speed limits

of course, it also depends on what the LEO wants to let go

when I bought my Audi A5 coupe, the dealer wanted to know if I wanted to move up to a S5

when told the difference was that the A 5 was only rated for 140 MPH and the S 5 was rated higher ( turbo charged 4 vs. V 6 ) , I laughed and said

and where do I get to drive that fast??

For a few years in the 1990s Montana didn't have a daytime speed limit. I was there once in that period, but only in a 30' class C RV. Which I know is governed with a fuel cutoff at 87 mph.


I have a '14 S4, which has the 333 hp supercharged V6. My boss just bought a new S4 on Saturday, and it's been upgraded in the B9 model to a 354 hp turbocharged V6. Both of them are plenty fast. Sub 5-second 0-60 times, and top ends well into the arrest me zone. The A4 has Audi's version of the ubiquitous 2.0L four-cylinder, which I think is currently tuned to make about 220 hp. I'm sure you could get arrested in that, too.

[aslyfox]

. . . The A4 has Audi's version of the ubiquitous 2.0L four-cylinder, which I think is currently tuned to make about 220 hp. I'm sure you could get arrested in that, too.

my 2015 A 5 Coupé has " turbocharged 2.0-liter four-cylinder engine that produces 220 horsepower and 258 pound-feet of torque "

https://www.edmunds.com/audi/a5/2015/review/


0-60 time: 6.2 sec.

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/audi/2014-2015-audi-a5-coupe-ar157939.html

it has speed alarms which I need because it is so smooth and quiet, I am in the " arrest me zone " quickly if I am not paying attention

mine has the old styling which I prefer over the new styling

note the angled sun roof, the story is that the original designer did not want a sun roof at all and would only agree to a tilting one, not one that completely opens

it currently has 30 K + miles ( 25 miles when I picked it up in December of '14 )

[lesmore49]

In 2015 when I was last in Montana and Wyoming, Montana's speed limits on the interstate was 75 mph and Wyoming was 80 mph on the interstate. Both those states are relatively uninhabited (the way I like things ) and have long stretches between point A and B. Neighboring South Dakota if I recall was also 75 mph on the interstate and North Dakota is 70 mph.

You can make good time following the speed limits in these states...but this area gets very cold, has huge areas without a lot of people and presently given how very cold affects battery power...also given that electric vehicles also rely on the batteries for both in cabin heat and air conditioning it would significantly affect the mileage claims electric cars have.

Either a puer internal combustion engine or a hybrid IC/electric would be the way to go.

Unless you live in or visit these areas or similar areas...ie; Canadian prairies it's hard to grasp how much land, how relatively few people there are and in the dead of winter..how really cold it can get.

Me, myself, I've lived both in Manitoba and Alberta and I love the western region...both Canada and the States. But it's not like western Europe, Asia, the east or west coasts of North America.

Sometimes it's frustrating in western Canada (prairies) having overall decisions made for Canada, by politicians in the heavily populated areas of eastern Canada. Rep by pop is in principle a good idea IMHO...but unfortunately when the bulk of the population is congregated in particular areas...decisions are made that reflect their wants/needs...and not so much the smaller populated areas in a country.

[ThorSanchez]

my 2015 A 5 Coupé has " turbocharged 2.0-liter four-cylinder engine that produces 220 horsepower and 258 pound-feet of torque "

Used 2015 Audi A5 Review & Ratings | Edmunds


0-60 time: 6.2 sec.

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/audi/2014-2015-audi-a5-coupe-ar157939.html

it has speed alarms which I need because it is so smooth and quiet, I am in the " arrest me zone " quickly if I am not paying attention

mine has the old styling which I prefer over the new styling

note the angled sun roof, the story is that the original designer did not want a sun roof at all and would only agree to a tilting one, not one that completely opens

it currently has 30 K + miles ( 25 miles when I picked it up in December of '14 )

I like the styling of the B8.5 models, which mine is and it appears yours is, too. But the boss' B9 looks pretty sharp, too. I definitely think Audi has stepped up its look in the last decade. Early 2000s and prior Audis were almost purposefully bland.


Picture of mine attached. I have a sunroof that both tilts and retracts into the roof. I'm a fan.

[kadajawi]

Perhaps you live in Germany and can drive 180-200 km/h (or 112-125 mph), but here in the US that'll get you thrown in jail in all 50 states. I think a Tesla will get you 200+ km at the maximum legal speeds here, which are 70-80 mph. On the east coast you'll be lucky to find a limit over 70 mph, although traffic is often moving a bit higher.


And I have my doubts that a Model S or a Model 3 is worse for the environment than the hundreds of 20-30 year old heavy trucks you see on the road here every day, belching out great quantities of black smoke and designed to 1980s diesel emissions requirements.

Yup, Germany, and yup, I'm aware that we're quite different from the rest of the world. I wish fuel was cheaper, because back in the day people would drive faster and thus be better drivers. Now with slowing speeds people have gotten quite terrible.

And yes, old trucks are a bad idea. I hope they are soon replaced by those electric trucks etc.

A friend had an S5 8.5 in the 5 door version. There are more advantages compared to an A5, apart from top speed. Acceleration of course, and the S5 has AWD vs FWD. Handling is improved, adaptive dampeners mean it could both do comfortable and sporty, depending on what was needed. etc. He recently moved up to a Jaguar F-Type R, which can be a comfortable long distance cruiser with suspension softer than, say, a Golf (not the sporty variants) and low noise levels... but also an absolute hooligan, with insane noise levels and explosions like gun shots, track focused suspension etc. The perfect car, basically.

[Dewman]

I drive a 1999 Toyota Avalon I've had most of it's life. It has almost 200,000 miles on it and it purrs like a kitten! Uses NO oil, gets 28-33 MPG, quiet, comfortable, powerful little FI V-6 and it handles great in the mountains of Idaho. Last year, I drove less than 3,000 miles.... so.... being the practical sort that I am, I see no reason whatsoever to make any changes.


Now.... it I hit the lotto? Git outta' my way!

[Lord Lucan]

And I have my doubts that a Model S or a Model 3 is worse for the environment than the hundreds of 20-30 year old heavy trucks you see on the road

I'm not going to take displays of political hand-wringing and navel gazing over saving energy and saving emmissions very seriously as long as there are bitcoin mining farms, some of which are consuming as much power as a town. Here is news of an old coal fired power station being re-commissioned to meet the demand :-

This coal power plant is being reopened for blockchain mining - CNET

Currently the world consumption of electricity for bitcoin mining is about the same as for the nation of Switzerland, and it is riing fast :-

Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index - Digiconomist

I think I shall wait for this bubble to burst before I start feeling guilty about my car.