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10-29-2022, 08:03 PM - 1 Like   #2791
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QuoteOriginally posted by R.Miller Quote
OK, that is really cool. They are basically a power plant. I thought about doing that with just solar. The upfront costs are high but the thought of being mostly energy independent, especially in these times is compelling. I would do an off-grid system. I have to do the calcs and figure out how much solar/batteries I would need. I have a 4KW electric water heater so that does not help. At least the range is gas. Heat is gas also. Heating things takes a ridiculous amount of energy.
As I'm in the Architecture business, I have had involvement with a number clients investigating going off-grid. Here, by us, the break even point is about 400-500m, depending on local conditions. What that means is, if your house is closer than 400-500m from the grid supply, then it's cheaper to be connected to the grid. In the case of my friends, they use the grid as their "battery". Most people, in that situation, use solar only, but because they already had the wind turbines, it makes sense to keep using them until they reach end of life.

When going off-grid, you have the added cost of the battery bank. Some people reduce their battery bank cost by buying secondhand, usually from critical infrastructure industries who need to upgrade their battery banks while the old batteries still have plenty of life left.

10-29-2022, 08:07 PM - 2 Likes   #2792
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
That photo has been doing the rounds on Faceplant for a while now. But, it's not electric cars with failed batteries. It's a rideshare car company that went bankrupt. Between the posting of the photo and now, most of those cars have been sold.

At this point, there's no battery disposal problem as electric car batteries are either used in static battery storage, after no longer being suitable for car use, or are recycled.
So I’ve been duped by the Evil FacePlant again!

Curses!

Still, I’d like to see the cost benefit analysis of recycling lithium polymer batteries. How much energy, time and money does it take? What environmental impacts does the process have?

What is the carbon footprint?


Can Heironymus Merkin Ever Forget Mercy Humppe and Find True Happiness?
10-29-2022, 08:27 PM - 1 Like   #2793
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
When going off-grid, you have the added cost of the battery bank. Some people reduce their battery bank cost by buying secondhand, usually from critical infrastructure industries who need to upgrade their battery banks while the old batteries still have plenty of life left.
Agreed. It's a significant cost. It does allow you to stay powered if the grid goes down though. Thanks for the good info.
10-30-2022, 02:48 PM - 3 Likes   #2794
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I'm still pretty happy with my gas car, and there's no way I could use an electric car, anyway. I live in an apartment with nowhere to plug in while at home, and 95% of my driving is on road trips along out-of-the-way highways where finding a gas station is hard, let alone a charging station.

I got back from another round trip to Oregon last weekend. 2,600 miles, averaging 48.3 mpg (or 4.9 l/100km) calculated from the trip meter and gas receipts, not the car's own slightly optimistic MPG reading. Pretty good for a pure ICE car, not a hybrid or even a turbo. Just a little 1,200cc engine in a lightweight, aerodynamic car. I still wish the tank were a little bigger, though. Even getting such good mileage, 9 gallons feels a little restrictive. The car goes into full panic mode if I go past 350 miles on a tank, with the gauge empty and blinking, even though there's usually more than a gallon and a half left at that point.



10-30-2022, 02:52 PM   #2795
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QuoteOriginally posted by R.Miller Quote
OK, that is really cool. They are basically a power plant. I thought about doing that with just solar. The upfront costs are high but the thought of being mostly energy independent, especially in these times is compelling. I would do an off-grid system. I have to do the calcs and figure out how much solar/batteries I would need. I have a 4KW electric water heater so that does not help. At least the range is gas. Heat is gas also. Heating things takes a ridiculous amount of energy.
We are going to look at replacing gas heat, gas water heater and conventional AC with heat pumps. I think the water heater swap is straightforward and the HVAC swap is not a big deal, but I'm not sure how much these systems will consume yet. It would allow us to disconnect gas service. Our system is grid-tied and we'd keep that. I want to finish the solar project and get some data before starting that project, but the gas furnace and water heater are 16 years old and going to die at some point anyway.
10-30-2022, 07:47 PM   #2796
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The water heater and gas furnace being end of life makes it a good choice to change systems over. Depending on location heat pumps make a lot of sense.
10-31-2022, 04:42 AM - 1 Like   #2797
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QuoteOriginally posted by scratchpaddy Quote
I'm still pretty happy with my gas car, and there's no way I could use an electric car, anyway. I live in an apartment with nowhere to plug in while at home, and 95% of my driving is on road trips along out-of-the-way highways where finding a gas station is hard, let alone a charging station.

I got back from another round trip to Oregon last weekend. 2,600 miles, averaging 48.3 mpg (or 4.9 l/100km) calculated from the trip meter and gas receipts, not the car's own slightly optimistic MPG reading. Pretty good for a pure ICE car, not a hybrid or even a turbo. Just a little 1,200cc engine in a lightweight, aerodynamic car. I still wish the tank were a little bigger, though. Even getting such good mileage, 9 gallons feels a little restrictive. The car goes into full panic mode if I go past 350 miles on a tank, with the gauge empty and blinking, even though there's usually more than a gallon and a half left at that point.
Your car reminds me of a copper-colored 1981 Toyota Starlet I used to own. It was a hatchback with a tiny 60.8 cu.in. 4-cylinder engine, rear wheel drive, and a 5-speed manual transmission. The car only had 44 horsepower, but still seemed sprightly enough with the 5-speed manual transmission. Driving carefully, I often was able to get over 50 mpg fuel consumption. I traded it in for a new Toyota Camry, and have missed it ever since.

10-31-2022, 05:38 PM - 1 Like   #2798
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QuoteOriginally posted by ivanvernon Quote
Your car reminds me of a copper-colored 1981 Toyota Starlet I used to own. It was a hatchback with a tiny 60.8 cu.in. 4-cylinder engine, rear wheel drive, and a 5-speed manual transmission. The car only had 44 horsepower, but still seemed sprightly enough with the 5-speed manual transmission. Driving carefully, I often was able to get over 50 mpg fuel consumption. I traded it in for a new Toyota Camry, and have missed it ever since.
Yes! I love small, simple cars. Mine also has a 5-speed stick shift even in this day and age, but it did get power windows, locks, and even cruise control. That last was a big selling point for me - it's standard, even on the base model, so I can give my right foot a rest through Nevada.

Maybe you know this, but the Starlet was the predecessor to the Vitz - sold here as the Echo, and then as the Yaris. The Yaris Hybrid was sold here as the Prius C - so what you have now is the direct modern successor of your old Starlet.
10-31-2022, 06:04 PM   #2799
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QuoteOriginally posted by scratchpaddy Quote
I still wish the tank were a little bigger, though. Even getting such good mileage, 9 gallons feels a little restrictive.
I know there is a tipping point regarding the engineering to carry more fuel vs overall fuel economy, but adding 3 more gallons would net around 500 miles on a fill up, and only add about 20 more pounds to the overall vehicle weight (about 18 pounds for the fuel, and a couple pounds for a larger fuel tank and mounting hardware.
10-31-2022, 07:04 PM   #2800
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QuoteOriginally posted by scratchpaddy Quote
Yes! I love small, simple cars. Mine also has a 5-speed stick shift even in this day and age, but it did get power windows, locks, and even cruise control. That last was a big selling point for me - it's standard, even on the base model, so I can give my right foot a rest through Nevada.

Maybe you know this, but the Starlet was the predecessor to the Vitz - sold here as the Echo, and then as the Yaris. The Yaris Hybrid was sold here as the Prius C - so what you have now is the direct modern successor of your old Starlet.
Thanks for that interesting history. I bought my little 1981 Starlet as a used vehicle around 1983 with about 35,000 miles on it at a price of $3,100, and the little car did not have a scratch or dent on it. I drove it for about 8 years, with the odometer at around 150,000 miles and sold it for about what I paid for it, still in excellent condition. The car was very satisfying to own because of the precision way in which it was built--tight construction, cheap but functional interior, great paint job, a very satisfying piece of equipment. This same car nowadays goes for over $20,000 because its rear wheel drive and light weight make it a great drift racing vehicle. I should never have sold it!
10-31-2022, 07:08 PM   #2801
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QuoteOriginally posted by Just1MoreDave Quote
We are going to look at replacing gas heat, gas water heater and conventional AC with heat pumps. I think the water heater swap is straightforward and the HVAC swap is not a big deal, but I'm not sure how much these systems will consume yet. It would allow us to disconnect gas service. Our system is grid-tied and we'd keep that. I want to finish the solar project and get some data before starting that project, but the gas furnace and water heater are 16 years old and going to die at some point anyway.
We’re drifting off topic, but
My father swapped out gas heat and regular AC for a heat pump and electric heat in the 1980’s when electricity was cheap. For about 15 years it had a good net savings. What became unmanageable eventually is after one government promoted cheap electricity was replaced by one favouring market value rates, it became much more expensive to the point where it was prohibitive. The only reason it made sense initially was his gas furnace needed replacement in the first place.

The same is true today when replacing standard efficiency furnaces with high efficiency. Unless the furnace is done, the payback is not there.
11-01-2022, 01:16 PM   #2802
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Payback is always subject to what future prices will be, and that has never been more difficult. Natural gas has been pretty cheap here since fracking. Then in February 2021, it snowed in Texas. Their electrical grid crashed, which caused a demand spike in gas and difficulties moving it around. Even in places that were nowhere near Texas, prices increased by a factor of 10 in a week; within Texas, much more. The prices fell pretty quick but this did affect my gas bill a lot for two months. Then everything was OK until Ukraine, which is even more unrelated to my gas supply here but I can't escape the global prices. The electricity here has also gone up 5 times in 4 years, partly energy costs and partly mismanagement.

With solar on my house and switching to all-electric stuff, I trade the less stable cost and maybe supply to something under my direct control. At this point with the infrastructure installed and paid for, adding more electric stuff pays it off faster, especially stuff I can use intermittently. Like I can wait for more sun before charging the car.

Also heat pumps are almost magical. We talked to a guy last month who installed a heat pump water heater. It has to extract the heat from some air source, essentially air-conditioning that source space. He was air-conditioning a crawl space which dropped its temperature 30 degrees F. The process is supposed to be 4 times more efficient than burning natural gas.
11-02-2022, 05:40 PM - 1 Like   #2803
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QuoteOriginally posted by Racer X 69 Quote
I know there is a tipping point regarding the engineering to carry more fuel vs overall fuel economy, but adding 3 more gallons would net around 500 miles on a fill up, and only add about 20 more pounds to the overall vehicle weight (about 18 pounds for the fuel, and a couple pounds for a larger fuel tank and mounting hardware.
My thoughts exactly. It seems needlessly limiting. I would think maybe market segmentation played a role in their decision - it is a cheap car after all - but the Mirage is the only car they sell anymore. The Lancer, Gallant, Diamante... all discontinued.

I used to have a '12 Chevy Cruze Eco. All other trim levels had a fuel tank capacity of 15.6 gallons, while the Eco could only take 12.6 gallons. In fact, all Cruzes had the exact same fuel tank. The Eco just had a special fuel pump module which made gas station pump shut off three gallons early. You could - and some people did - replace the Eco fuel pump module with a regular one to get the full 15.6 gallon capacity, if you were comfortable dropping and dismantling the gas tank. It was all a numbers game to make the "Eco" version seem that much lighter on the spec sheet.

QuoteOriginally posted by ivanvernon Quote
Thanks for that interesting history. I bought my little 1981 Starlet as a used vehicle around 1983 with about 35,000 miles on it at a price of $3,100, and the little car did not have a scratch or dent on it. I drove it for about 8 years, with the odometer at around 150,000 miles and sold it for about what I paid for it, still in excellent condition. The car was very satisfying to own because of the precision way in which it was built--tight construction, cheap but functional interior, great paint job, a very satisfying piece of equipment. This same car nowadays goes for over $20,000 because its rear wheel drive and light weight make it a great drift racing vehicle. I should never have sold it!
I imagine the costs of maintaining a car in a shape that anyone would want to buy for 40 years would add up. But yeah, people love those old rear-wheel-drive Toyotas, especially the AE86 Sprinter Trueno from the same era, partly thanks to a certain manga, Initial D. I saw one at a car show once, even though, back when it was new, it was just a sporty Corolla.


Last edited by scratchpaddy; 11-02-2022 at 05:49 PM.
11-02-2022, 06:32 PM - 2 Likes   #2804
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QuoteOriginally posted by scratchpaddy Quote
I imagine the costs of maintaining a car in a shape that anyone would want to buy for 40 years would add up.
I paid $2,000 for Eddie. I’ve spent about another $2,000 in parts taking care of deferred maintenance. Of course I have the advantage of not having to pay a mechanic to do the work, but even then I would still be way ahead of a new F150, which ranges from $33,000 (base) to around $78,000 for a fully loaded and optioned model.

Even though the Eddie Bauer was the high option pickup at the time, air conditioning, tilt column, remote electric mirrors, power door locks, premium seats and upholstery, special trim, it doesn’t have all the gimcracks and geegaws of the 2022 models.

But I’m good with that.

And since I don’t have a pile of money wrapped up in it, it doesn’t concern me if some jerk parks too close, or someone wants to play chicken in traffic.
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11-02-2022, 08:35 PM - 1 Like   #2805
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Sure, for a work vehicle you're planning to drive until the wheels fall off, it's a little different. You don't have to consider the value of the time you spent working on it, or the value of the space you use to store it, because it's a tool that continues to provide value to you daily. Plus, it doesn't matter how desirable or "original" it is.

My point was that it's painful to see a car you had back in the day going for good money now, but there would have been some big opportunity costs to keeping that car around all this time as an investment. Ivan sold his beloved Starlet around 1989 for about $3,100. If he had then taken that money and invested it passively in the stock market (say, a S&P 500-based index fund), he would have almost $15,000 today, despite how much the market's fallen this year (including today). And that money wouldn't have required any replacement parts, or labor to maintain, or taken up space in the garage for 33 years.
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