[WPRESTO]

DAZ: There is a very, very slim chance that I will still be here in 20 years to point out what insignificant progress has been made to freezing a human for deep space travel, or to constructing a ship large enough to sustain such a flight. If we were to start construction today, in 30 years we would be, effectively, nowhere. Lifting sufficient materials into space to construct such a ship is vastly beyond what any country or consortium of countries would, or even could undertake. The ship would have to be larger than a Caribbean cruise ship.How close are we to building such a massive structure in space? Accelerating such a giant to the required velocity boggles the mind. "Dreamers" gloss over all the realistic problems, dismissing them as "that will be solved in a few years." One is reminded of expectations decades back that antibiotics and vaccines would eliminate diseases as causes of human death.

[gaweidert]

Back towards the end of WWII my wife's uncle was a fighter pilot. He was assigned to fly P38's. One of the warnings they got was not to approach the "speed of conclusion" in a dive. Everyone knew that this was the limit of how fast any plane could ever fly. So he figured that being an office, a lieutenant and cocky as hell that these limits did not apply to him. So he took the plane as high as he could and pointed it at the ground.

He went so fast that he hit what we now call the mach buffet. The plane was shaking, rattling and groaning. It scared the heck out of him. He tried to pull out but the plane would not respond. He finally started kicking the rudders and the increased air resistance as he lost altitude slowed the plane down enough that he was finally able to pull out. He was lucky to survive. Or as he said "Damned lucky." Uncle Art went on to a 29 year career in the Air Force. After WWII he switched to flying transport planes as these pilots got a lot more flying hours than fighter pilots did during peace time. His love was flying and it didn't matter what plane it was. However, the P38 remained his all time favorite plane to fly. He never flew jets.

The point being that we thought that no plane could go faster than the sound it made. But we figured out the physics involved and technology needed and we did it. The speed of light, space and gravity are the same sort of thing. We still don't know exactly what they are and all the laws of physics that apply to them. Once we do, we can develop the technology to get around it.

We already know that as a spinning particle is accelerated to near the speed of light the part of the particle rotating forward is actually exceeding the speed of light. Getting a handle on this is the issue. We already know how to make a photon of light exist in two places at the same time. Or maybe we still don't understand exactly what a photon of light really is.

Technical progress is not a steady thing. The computer you have on our desk hasn't really changed all that much in the last 50 years. It is smaller, faster. less expensive and more energy efficient, but they still use transistor technology that was first developed in 1947. There have been no real operational advances in computers in a long time. In many ways, my latest HP desktop is really not much different than the TRS-80 Model 4 that I purchased in 1983.

[Rupert]

Just thinking.....although I am not all that good at it....."In theory", it has been possible to fly since the first cave man discovered fire, not that fire had anything to do with flying. The basis of flight has always been here, we just haven't always known of it.

Is there any recognized theory today that would allow travel beyond our solar system to planets light years away? I mean realistic theories based on known physics?

Just wondering?

Regards!

[WPRESTO]

Every time a read a story about the P38, it's usually accompanied by the comment "pilots loved them."
My answer to Rupert's question would be flatly no. What we know of physics does not allow a shortcut to astronomical distances. Accelerating a particle too small to see to extraordinary velocity is nothing like scaling that up to the size of a spaceship. Particles behave according to quantum laws that defy logic at human-size scale*. Light photons can behave either as particles or as waves, or as both. Find something you can hold in your hand that behaves in any way like a photon or an electron. Because technology has advanced and things have been accomplished that were once thought impossible emphatically does not mean that technology will solve every problem or that things we can imagine will come true. If you ascribe to the idea that advances in science and technology will overcome all barriers, then why bother with spaceships to reach the stars? We'll utilize beam-me-up technology and get there instantaneously. As to technology solving all problems and creating all things that can be imagined, look back to multiple issues of Popular Science magazine from the 50's and 60's and see how many of the cover-story things they imagined have come to pass, and many of those were based on reasonable technology and physics.

*Good sports cars can reach 60mph in 5~6 seconds. Let's scale that up so freight trains reach 60mph in 5~6 seconds. Size matters, and there's more to it than "it could be done if we really wanted to."

[Rupert]

Size matters, and there's more to it than "it could be done if we really wanted to."

Yes, I agree......I see a lot of wishful thinking but not much science to go with it. Even if you send a photon to a distant planet, it's not going to get there anytime soon, and a freight train? When will it arrive, they can't even get "there" on time here on earth!

Still...no harm in dreaming!

In his dreams he flies like an eagle!


Regards & thanks for the reply!

[Tom S.]

Every time a read a story about the P38, it's usually accompanied by the comment "pilots loved them."
My answer to Rupert's question would be flatly no. What we know of physics does not allow a shortcut to astronomical distances. Accelerating a particle too small to see to extraordinary velocity is nothing like scaling that up to the size of a spaceship. Particles behave according to quantum laws that defy logic at human-size scale*. Light photons can behave either as particles or as waves, or as both. Find something you can hold in your hand that behaves in any way like a photon or an electron. Because technology has advanced and things have been accomplished that were once thought impossible emphatically does not mean that technology will solve every problem or that things we can imagine will come true. If you ascribe to the idea that advances in science and technology will overcome all barriers, then why bother with spaceships to reach the stars? We'll utilize beam-me-up technology and get there instantaneously. As to technology solving all problems and creating all things that can be imagined, look back to multiple issues of Popular Science magazine from the 50's and 60's and see how many of the cover-story things they imagined have come to pass, and many of those were based on reasonable technology and physics.

*Good sports cars can reach 60mph in 5~6 seconds. Let's scale that up so freight trains reach 60mph in 5~6 seconds. Size matters, and there's more to it than "it could be done if we really wanted to."

The relatively modern day equivalent to the P38 as a plane pilots loved would have to be the A-10 aka Warthog. Not fast nor pretty, but it could take a licking and keep on flying.

[WPRESTO]

The "Warthog" tank killer. I have heard a couple of flyers praise that rather mean machine.
Think I will unsubscribe this thread for a while.

[loco]

Just wanted to say I'm enjoying this thread. It's a great time-killer at work! I don't know much about the science of this kind of thing, but find it fascinating to read. I hope the converstation continues.

[Auzzie-Phoenix]

Just wanted to say I'm enjoying this thread. It's a great time-killer at work! I don't know much about the science of this kind of thing, but find it fascinating to read. I hope the converstation continues.

Glad you're enjoying the read. As for it continuing, it's starting to look doubtful since people seem to want to claim impossibility or some up with snappy one liners rather than to give the topic serious thought as a future possibility, rather than just daydreaming.

But here's a joke for you:

What's the difference between a politician and an astronaut?

While the politician is busy promising you the stars in order to get elected, an astronaut strives to reach them.

[SpecialK]

As for it continuing, it's starting to look doubtful since people seem to want to claim impossibility or some up with snappy one liners rather than to give the topic serious thought as a future possibility, rather than just daydreaming.

Sorry, but it has been given serious thought, some even included mathematics, and deem it is impossible. All that's left is daydreaming.

[i_trax]

Well, we will need to radically change our values and believes, our biological evolution became way too slow to follow galloping technological race.
We can not cope with the modern massed produced processed food, we can not cope with the modern lifestyle, we can not cope with the stress forced on us by the demanding modern run for the success.
Nearly 50% of Australians admitted to take drugs , nearly other 50% are on antidepressants - very very scary !
They are our future decisions makers, law people, politicians , academics etc
Not a long time ago humans were very happy and fulfilled with just having a Family, place to live and enough food to not to be hungry.
Most recent and current refugees want also just that, they are happy to work hard and do not expect much fun in the life.
The second generation, born in France or UK or Australia want much more.
They go to school with the locals and they want to have the same life as locals, hence we had some riots in Paris , Sydney etc.
Situation in Europe , Australia or USA etc is getting out of control, if we do not do something soon it will explode.
Refugees have to assimilate into the local communities, should keep their ethnic values but speak the local language with their kids and obey local law and habits.
We have to address those issues otherwise we will not survive till the time we could be ready to go.
Now , the serious business. To assure that "human" existence will continue we will must to alter our biological evolution, that's right it is a very serious business.
We will have to gradually start replacing our body parts with an artificial mechanic parts.
Our body needs to became less dependant on the present foods, protein , water and oxygen.
Sounds drastic but I am afraid it is unavoidable.
The Borg, it is the future. There will not be males or females any more, there will be just super intelligent creatures.
I obviously will not witness this but "people" will live longer and longer and eventually forever, I am not sure if I will be able to cope with that!
What about sex? I think I am very glad to live on the Earth in 21 Century.
Sweet dreams..........................

[gaweidert]

Well, compared to the stress that existed just 100 years ago, modern society actually imposes very little real stress. Not that long ago a failed harvest due to a late frost was a life and death thing. Get strep throat? Write your will or bury your child.

Near me is an old cemetery. In it are buried 5 children. All laid out side by side. All of them with the same last name and no doubt from the same family. The oldest is nine. The youngest only a few months old. All died within a few months of each other in 1822. Some sort of epidemic must have swept through the family leaving a disaster in it's wake. Imagine watching you children die like that. One after the other and you being helpless to stop it. That is stress.

Today we impose a lot of stress upon ourselves. Back then stress was mostly from outside sources. I think we must need some stress to accomplish things, but we are very poor at keeping life in perspective. Whoever takes this journey is going to have to deal with isolation and stress on a level few of us can imagine.

[DAZ]

I do believe I use the words “extremely expensive”. Everything that I was talking about either used existing technologies like the Orion spacecraft or predictable advances in existing technology. Even so none of the 3 proposals are guaranteed to succeed.

The part of the 3 proposals that seems the most difficult, the nuclear pulse detonation engine, is actually the easiest and is based on 1950s technology. This technology has been vetted by some of the best scientific and engineering minds on the planet. Not only could they find no significant flaws many advocate us actually building it today.

The proposal for the Orion spacecraft was actually on the president of the United States desk. He rejected it not for cost or technical but for political reasons. One “small” Orion spacecraft could lift in a single launch more weight than all of the previous launches into orbit that human race has done combined. We are talking a large battleship or aircraft carrier in one piece in one launch. Many of the details of the Orion project are still classified but a lot of it has been declassified and is available on the web.

From a technological point of view the building of the 3 ships that I mentioned is the simplest part of the problem. It would probably be impossible to produce the political will to build any of the ships unless the extinction of the human race was shortly eminent.

What we refer to as the human race has continued to change over its existence. If we were to look at our ancestors from 50,000 years ago we would have a difficult time recognizing them as human. If our ancestors from 50,000 years ago were to look at us they most likely would not recognize us as human.

Our intelligence gives us the ability to create and manipulate technology. This is accelerating the process of our change. It also allows us to go into environments that evolution has not equipped us to survive in. An example is we can go from the deepest oceans to the vacuum of space. No other creature on this planet can do that on its own.

Interesting enough intelligence has not yet be demonstrated to have an evolutionary survival advantage. If we survive 10,000 years the humans of that time may not recognize us as humans and we most likely would probably not recognize them as humans.

To survive another 10,000 years (or the next 100 years) the human race will most assuredly need to leave the cradle. It most likely won’t be to the stars (at least without some unforeseen advancements in science and technology) but there is definitely plenty we can and should do in the inner solar system.

If we do go to the stars to “save the human race” it will most likely will be the beginning of the end of the human race. It will force changes on us faster and more profoundly than any other changes that have happened to us in the past. This will be the end of the human race as we know it in and the beginning of something else. What that something else would be is impossible to say but it will replace the human race as we know it.

DAZ

[Ratmagiclady]

If you can have a ship that size, don't freeze anybody.

[WPRESTO]

I believe that the "nuclear pulse detonation engine" was the brain dream of physicist Dyson who also proposed "Dyson spheres" "Dyson Rings" Dyson bubbles" and similar phantasmagorical structures. Some elementary calculations V-A-V the latter suggest there is not the remotest possibility of constructing such things*. As for using a "controlled" nuclear explosion to propel a spacecraft, how close are we to such technology? We can control a nuclear reaction, but how close are we to containing and controlling a nuclear explosion with sufficient precision to use it as engine for space travel? Has anyone come close? How? When? Where?

*Dyson spheres might be compared to the prediction put forward numerous times between about 1950 and 1980 that by the early 21st century our cities would be encased in huge domes so that the weather could be controlled all year long, perpetual springtime - no more need for individual buildings to be heated or air conditioned. Or perhaps compared to similar predictions of domed communities, or even cities at the bottom of the oceans, with high-speed transport between different population centers via pneumatically-driven trains running through hundreds or thousands of miles of tubes.