[falconeye]

I think that article is a joke.

I care about the correctness of information in my original posts (thread starts). Therefore, let me give additional information about the correctness of the information I provided:

(1) The (German) article cites the information as being given as such by Mike German during CFP2008.

(2) See The 21st Century Panopticon? - CFPWiki
As it seems, Mike German is a great American patriot and saved the lifes of many American citizens. If he says so, we should not think it is meant to be a joke.

(3) The last sentence in my refererence reads: "Michael is currently working on a report for the ACLU that investigates the use of Fusion Centers in the collection, processing, and dissemination of information for law enforcement, intelligence, and non-government purposes."
This is exactly what the article was about.


So, in summary, I wished it were a joke but I fear it isn't. And again: the problem isn't that cops watch You. As that's a good thing, probably. It's that all this is compiled w/o your knowledge to Dossiers in 58 Fusion Centers which are controlled by ... whom?

Updates:
You can see Mike German speaking at a ACLU press conference here: http://www.aclu.org/whistleblower/statements/video.html

Here is a prior report/testimony by Mike: http://www.aclu.org/images/general/asset_upload_file419_35426.pdf
The report about the Fusion Centres doesn't seem to be out yet. As it seems, it isn't easy for Mike to do what he does...

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Last edited by falconeye; 07-01-2008 at 05:09 AM.

[straightshooter]

DHS has got to be the most dysfunctional government creation in the history of the US. The problem with it is that Shrub and his minions tried to stick EVERYTHING under it so it is becoming a Jack of All Trades and a Master of None. Anyone want to guess why FEMA was and is so uncoordinated in the event of a hurricane, flood or whatever? It's because DHS has FEMA practicing for a terrorist attack over 75% of the time, ignoring natural disaster preparedness. Plus the ultimate purpose of any bureaucracy, DHS included, is not to accomplish what it is established for but to actually gain status/power and increase it's budget. This is one of the first things taught in political science classes.

Now, for our friends in other countries. One thing you have to remember is that here in the US, there are many of us who shoot with things other than cameras. Before it could turn into a restrictive authoritarian state with DHS in the role of Stasi or whatever, they would have to disarm the citizenry and a very recent Supreme Court decision would make that almost impossible.

CW

[OniFactor]

Now, for our friends in other countries. One thing you have to remember is that here in the US, there are many of us who shoot with things other than cameras. Before it could turn into a restrictive authoritarian state with DHS in the role of Stasi or whatever, they would have to disarm the citizenry and a very recent Supreme Court decision would make that almost impossible.

CW

no, the government would much rather have a good segment of under educated youth proficient with small arms.. that way they save costs and time in boot camp..

*cough*

[ericc]

Now, for our friends in other countries. One thing you have to remember is that here in the US, there are many of us who shoot with things other than cameras. Before it could turn into a restrictive authoritarian state with DHS in the role of Stasi or whatever, they would have to disarm the citizenry and a very recent Supreme Court decision would make that almost impossible.

Wow, another southern, anti-shrub, fervent gun owner who shoots k-mount. I'm guessing we've just about exhausted that particular sub-genre.

Besides the DA*'s, I also like my Stoeger over/under 12 gauge.

[beest]

You just have to love it!!! Ok for those of you not paying attention that was sarcasim....what...it I get the tone wrong?

[Okami]

we protected our country before the DHS and they have failed numerous times since there inception to stop even the smallest of incidents I know people have seen stories about the investigations into the DHS, tell me what good they do that existing agencies such as the FBI, CIA, NSA, Military cant do? I stand by my statement they are a jok and a waste of tax payer dollars. if you like your money being wasted while we fall deeper and deeper in debt as a country than hey I applaud your ability to not care, but I do.

We protected our country until 9/11... how many 9/11's have you seen since?

And making our country deeper in debt? Are you kidding me... Any money that goes into DHS would have pretty much have been spread out to the agencies you mentioned above. I hate it when people throw in debt and tax dollars into every situation. It's not that simple. LoL I don't care? sigh... I mean seriously think about your statements before you throw them out there.

Not efficient yes, sometimes not effective yes, but it's a newer agency and they are learning. They had a reason and a plan when making DHS, they are trying to make it work.

If you are so worried about your money just think what would happen to the stock market tomorrow if there was another 9/11.

BTW we would have the same laws infringing on our rights with or without DHS. Again this law has been out for awhile already and I've not seen or heard any problems coming from it unless the person was looking for it. Go to New York, take a picture of every monument, big public place, un building.. etc and please count up the number of times you get stopped by the police.

[straightshooter]

Wow, another southern, anti-shrub, fervent gun owner who shoots.....

ROFLMHO Eric, you forgot to add, "Political Science major who is never adverse to stirring the pot and making people think or at least see what kind of reaction he can get."

CW

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Last edited by straightshooter; 07-02-2008 at 07:50 AM.

[Gooshin]

Now, for our friends in other countries. One thing you have to remember is that here in the US, there are many of us who shoot with things other than cameras. Before it could turn into a restrictive authoritarian state with DHS in the role of Stasi or whatever, they would have to disarm the citizenry and a very recent Supreme Court decision would make that almost impossible.

CW

ever consider not shooting things other than your cameras? do we really need guns?

[ericc]

ever consider not shooting things other than your cameras? do we really need guns?

I'm going to steer clear of this one...

[séamuis]

We protected our country until 9/11... how many 9/11's have you seen since?

and this proves the DHS is doing its job? show me said proof that the DHS is the reason we have had no more attacks on US soil.

And making our country deeper in debt? Are you kidding me... Any money that goes into DHS would have pretty much have been spread out to the agencies you mentioned above. I hate it when people throw in debt and tax dollars into every situation. It's not that simple. LoL I don't care? sigh... I mean seriously think about your statements before you throw them out there.

we are very much in debt as a country and we now have another government agency with another budget thats unneeded, if the money was given to the other agencies that I mentioned then please tell me why we NEED a DHS middle man with probably several thousand people being paid with our tax dollars and a budget nearing half a trillion dollars? so YES the DHS is only making the current very real debt situation this country is facing which is only getting worse with each passing day of this war even worse. and you think we need the DHS because we haven't had another attack? oh and yes the debt plays a part no matter what you mention about the US government thus inherently so does taxes. I never said it was that easy mind you, you just assumed I thought so.

maybe you should think about what you say first as well.

[OniFactor]

We protected our country until 9/11... how many 9/11's have you seen since?

and there were SO many before 9/11, that we just couldn't live without it.

seriously, one event should not be the sole basis for the founding of such an entity. if we'd had MULTIPLE terrorist attacks on our soil, i would be alright with it, but the fact that there's been no news of DHS thwarting any more attacks, or the fact that they don't seem to think about all the attacks at US embassies worldwide, that makes me question the true intentions of such a group.

And making our country deeper in debt? Are you kidding me... Any money that goes into DHS would have pretty much have been spread out to the agencies you mentioned above. I hate it when people throw in debt and tax dollars into every situation.

uhm.. the 2009 budget for DHS is 50 billion dollars. on top of what all the other agencies already get. the department of education is only at 59 billion dollars. hooray for spending more money on monitoring our people collectively, than educating them.

Not efficient yes, sometimes not effective yes, but it's a newer agency and they are learning. They had a reason and a plan when making DHS, they are trying to make it work.

in this time of grossly inefficient cars, the people have learned to let go of their SUVs and are slowly realizing that, to make it work, they need smaller vehicles. shouldn't the government realize the same? if it's too big to be efficient, maybe it needs to be culled back.

If you are so worried about your money just think what would happen to the stock market tomorrow if there was another 9/11.

i have no worries about my money. i know that it'll be worth nothing, in fact, less than nothing, in not too very long.

BTW we would have the same laws infringing on our rights with or without DHS. Again this law has been out for awhile already and I've not seen or heard any problems coming from it unless the person was looking for it. Go to New York, take a picture of every monument, big public place, un building.. etc and please count up the number of times you get stopped by the police.

while that may be true, should the government still have the ability to control this? i mean, honestly, the law is ineffective. if someone were a terrorist, and wanted to get such pictures, all it would take is one accomplice standing in front of whatever, making a peace sign, or something, so that they can say they're 'vacation' photos. what REALLY is the point of this law? the government trying to exert more control than they are allowed.

[Okami]

and there were SO many before 9/11, that we just couldn't live without it.

seriously, one event should not be the sole basis for the founding of such an entity. if we'd had MULTIPLE terrorist attacks on our soil, i would be alright with it, but the fact that there's been no news of DHS thwarting any more attacks, or the fact that they don't seem to think about all the attacks at US embassies worldwide, that makes me question the true intentions of such a group.

uhm.. the 2009 budget for DHS is 50 billion dollars. on top of what all the other agencies already get. the department of education is only at 59 billion dollars. hooray for spending more money on monitoring our people collectively, than educating them.

in this time of grossly inefficient cars, the people have learned to let go of their SUVs and are slowly realizing that, to make it work, they need smaller vehicles. shouldn't the government realize the same? if it's too big to be efficient, maybe it needs to be culled back.

i have no worries about my money. i know that it'll be worth nothing, in fact, less than nothing, in not too very long.

while that may be true, should the government still have the ability to control this? i mean, honestly, the law is ineffective. if someone were a terrorist, and wanted to get such pictures, all it would take is one accomplice standing in front of whatever, making a peace sign, or something, so that they can say they're 'vacation' photos. what REALLY is the point of this law? the government trying to exert more control than they are allowed.

59 Billion

What is our total government budget. 3.10 trillion for 2009

Tell me the percentage of that 59 billion to our total government budget... YES!! lets cut the whole entity right away, where you would think a HUGE portion of that would be spread back to our other agencies. So how much of our national debt are you solving? PLEASE tell me as you are educating me about how the DHS is the cause of it.

I never said I didn't care about money. I'm saying our government has a lot more important and BIGGER issues than the formation of the DHS that directly impact your wallet. 59 billion in a 3.1 trillion dollar budget... The Dow Jones lost almost 700 points the day the stock markets were open after 9/11. Our economy slumped for a long time. You are saying this 59 billion is NOT worth it if it actually is working??? And I'm only talking about the money side of it! If another attack even on a smaller scale than 9/11 , say dirty bomb in a stadium , do you understand the impact of this?

And for all those people that say it has not prevented anything. How in the world could you possibly know that?

:P heading out of work will finish this post when I get home.

[falconeye]

If another attack even on a smaller scale than 9/11 , say dirty bomb in a stadium

Such an attack would be larger scale, actually.


May I ask a question? (I hear everybody shout: no, no )

Does this thread's discussion represent the current climate in the US, i.e., either pro or contra, w/o shades of gray?


I am really puzzled, because it is those 58 uncontrolled Fusion Centres I find remarkable but nobody is even commenting on this. Everybody is either black or white.

[Okami]

Yes in terms of people sick and affect a dirty bomb maybe worse, but if you talk about the plain planning of it, much less than a plane in a building.

And yes, eventhough I felt there was a lot more grey in the past when it comes to election time, its time to pick what you want to really stand behind so you can make an educated decision on your vote.

[OniFactor]

i wasn't saying DHS is the cause of our economic hardships, rather that it's just making it more trying. that 59 billion could go towards something that would help support the economy, rather than a dead end exportation of our funds, because, let's face it, anything DHS spends money on outside of personnel is going to be bought from overseas.

as to it's effectiveness, c'mon. this is the US government. if they did successfully do something, they'd leak it to their press, who would plaster it all over the news. we still live in an era of propaganda, especially effected through the news