[falconeye]

If you take photographs "without aesthetical value", you may be reported as a suspicious citizen to the Department of Homeland Security.

This is no joke. Unfortunately.

This is the source:

Citations from:
German c't Magazine, 2008/14, p.52 (translated from German by myself)

Author: Stefan Krempl
Title: Kafka meets Orwell

Insights into surveillance society at conference "Computers, Freedom and Privacy" (CFP)

Since 18 years, CFP unites civil-rights activists and privacy advocates of the USA. This year, the participants describe the Status Quo of surveillance in government and in commerce.

[...]

Under Suspicion

In 2004, the US Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has started in its fight against terror to establish centres for collection of comprehensive dossiers about citizens. Meanwhile, according to the agency, there are now 58 such centres. Policy and intelligence agencies collect evidences for possible delicts. They make use of central database facilities and cooperate with banks, lessors, internet providers, credit agencies, gas stations, schools or military, says Mike German of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). The DHS lists all 800,000 police agents of the USA as "eyes and ears" but doesn't restrict its snooping program to them.

A charge for the Los Angeles Police Department is, for instance, says German, to report any suspicious activity of "criminal and non-criminal" nature. This includes reporting painting of pictures or the recording of comments, explains the former FBI agent. Even the reporting of shooting photographs "without aesthetical value" is included.
[...]
(2 page article providing further evidence that all this is no joke)

I thought it may be useful to be aware of the issue. Apparently, there is no way of finding out with the DHS what data have been collected about yourself. Of course, not able to inquire about collected data would be against the law in the European Union. As is collecting data w/o first evidence.

I can only say, some Germans knew all this already. It was called Stasi (Staatssicherheit). And one of the reasons why East Germans wanted to go west...

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Last edited by falconeye; 06-21-2008 at 12:57 PM.

[séamuis]

the fact that a completely idiotic organization such as the DHS exists proves that americans could care less what our government does and how it wastes our money. a shame really. we are inching ever closer to the communist state our government always claims to be against.

anyone feel free to chime in and say im un-american and have no clue what im talking about.

[TourDeForce]

You three are the most paranoid people I've seen in a long time. Relax. If you're out taking pictures as a tourists nobody will bother you & it is highly unlikely you're on some 'list' for snapping photos. If somebody wants to "report you", they have to get your name & whatnot for that to be of any value. Anybody here stopped & questioned? Asked to show identification? Taken into custody for questioning? Thought so.

Some Canadian memebers of my car club were FREAKED OUT by the change in gun laws here in Florida. You can now shoot somebody you perceive to be a threat, and the cry went out, "The streets of Florida will run red with the blood of innocent tourists asking for directions!!!".

Needless to say I worked that for all it was worth. Lotsa fun.

Score since that law passed:

Dead Tourists - 0
Dead criminals - who knows, but at least 2 that I'm aware of. There were more in the news, but I'm not keeping a body count of criminals.

[séamuis]

Im not paranoid, hey DHS **** off. you record that?


I just have a real problem with entities like the DHS. Im a street photographer I have no fear of cops or anyone else telling me anything.

[falconeye]

You three are the most paranoid people I've seen in a long time. Relax.

If my counting is correct, this includes myself.

No. I'm not paranoid. I am concerned. It is not about what it means today. It is about what this will evolve into. That's all. Therefore, if this would happen in my own country, I would fight against it. By all means. We Germans now know how fragile a democratic system is. This definitely is over the edge to be tolerated. You Americans may have stronger trust into your democratic system and I envy you for this. But even then there should be limits, shouldn't there?

Therefore, don't ignore the early signs. Please, don't be with levity. Especially, as this concerns photographs and photo journalists.


The moment I read the article I felt somewhat shocked. Enough to translate and post it here. Because I wasn't sure that everyone in the forum from the States is aware of this. I wasn't, this is for sure.


As for the reporting. The police must report the incidence (you taking a photo without aesthetical value). They won't stop you because they feel this charge is idiotic, actually. However, your car and its plate may have been spotted nearby enough...


And look at the larger plot: 58 centres compiling dossiers for possibly every American citizen...

[Gooshin]

the fact that a completely idiotic organization such as the DHS exists proves that americans could care less what our government does and how it wastes our money. a shame really. we are inching ever closer to the communist state our government always claims to be against.

anyone feel free to chime in and say im un-american and have no clue what im talking about.

please watch what you say,

communism does not entail vigoruos survailence, nor does communism imply a totalitarian structure of government and economy.

i am an un-american telling you that you dont have a clue what you are talking about.

[séamuis]

communism does not entail vigoruos survailence, nor does communism imply a totalitarian structure of government and economy.

I would think that those who lived in the USSR and east germany during the cold war would disagree. and I wont watch what I say, thank you.

If someone hadn't been asleep at the wheel beginning in 1993, there might never have been a need, or not, for something such as the DHS.

[heatherslightbox]

My question: how will a photograph be determined to be of aesthetic value or not? It's such a subjective thing.

For those of you who don't live in the US, if you were to survey a group of typical Americans, you would most likely find that the vast majority of us don't agree with most of what goes on in Washington. The vast majority of politicians and bureaucrats in Washington have no clue nor do they care about what the citizens of the U.S. want. Look at our 2 choices for president from the major political parties--Bad vs. Worse. As an American citizen, I believe that I need to exercise my right to vote, but I'm not terribly looking forward to this election.

I don't want this political rant to turn into a book, so I'll stop here. Hopefully you'll understand where I'm coming from.

Heather

[falconeye]

If someone hadn't been asleep at the wheel beginning in 1993, there might never have been a need, or not, for something such as the DHS.

I think I understand what you are going to say. I agree that some action against terrorism was and is required, of course.

I really don't want to interfere with internal affairs of the States and I will stop myself in this thread after this post. But let me add some thoughts from experience about what has happened in West Germany, esp. in "hot autumn 1977", before and after:

West Germany had seen a very serious thread from terrorism at that time, with support from some communist and arabic countries. The effort to eliminate the thread by police and agency work has been huge. It finally succeeded. But never had civil rights been so drastically put in question. Maybe because of a strong opposition from the population. From that time, I remember a constant argument: we must not cause more destruction to our society than terrorism does.

Great.... Another bash the USA thread.


Guys, if you want to discuss politics, go to msn.com or to excite.com. They'd love to have you over there.

[OniFactor]

Great.... Another bash the USA thread.


Guys, if you want to discuss politics, go to msn.com or to excite.com. They'd love to have you over there.

if you don't wanna read it, don't click on the thread.

Great.... Another bash the USA thread.


Guys, if you want to discuss politics, go to msn.com or to excite.com. They'd love to have you over there.

You're wasting your time. There's more of the left wingnut, blame america first, group here than you can imagine.

[falconeye]

Great.... Another bash the USA thread.

Well, I said I would stop posting in this thread... Still, with Ed's comment, let me explain why I posted the article.

I do actually love the USA. It wasn't my intention to bash it. My apologies, if I did Esp. as I am not from your wonderful country

So, I didn't want to discuss politics (I agree, myself and others actually did so ).

I did want to inform my forum fellows that police officers in some cities (like LA) got the instruction to report photographers taking photographs in situations where they wouldn't understand why. I wanted to inform about this and ask the legitimate question if American photographers should/can do something about such instructions.

Please, everybody, stop the rant. Ed is right in this.

Maybe, we, notably a group of American photographers from this forum, could write an open letter to LAPD asking the question if this charge has indeed been given to them and how they actually handle it. We could post the response here.

[LaRee]

My question: how will a photograph be determined to be of aesthetic value or not? It's such a subjective thing.

For those of you who don't live in the US, if you were to survey a group of typical Americans, you would most likely find that the vast majority of us don't agree with most of what goes on in Washington. The vast majority of politicians and bureaucrats in Washington have no clue nor do they care about what the citizens of the U.S. want. Look at our 2 choices for president from the major political parties--Bad vs. Worse. As an American citizen, I believe that I need to exercise my right to vote, but I'm not terribly looking forward to this election.

I don't want this political rant to turn into a book, so I'll stop here. Hopefully you'll understand where I'm coming from.

Heather

I totally agree with you here on all accounts Heather. Too bad Ron Paul is out of the running. DAMN!
And the office of homeland security and their workings drive THIS American nuts!