[condor27596]

The big shareholders. The average ones just put 6 percent into a nameless faceless 401k chosen at random from a list of 6 that the company says you can choose from.

Unless you are upper upper management. They have very different choices.

[monochrome]

If the assembly workers in Tennessee had voted to accept UAW as their union (which VW desperately wanted them to do) this would never have been revealed. Instead they stood by 'Right-To-Work' rules, and no Union.

They're making an example of VW for all the other manufacturers to contemplate. EVERYONE has something to hide - and US Gov. knows it.

"Nice little car company ya got there. Be a real shame if something happened to it."

AKA Chicago politics.

[wombat2go]

Re ChrisPlatt post:
They were, in my recollection in Australia, as I was servicing on cars at the time in 1969 ,
and I believe in the industry at the time ,
considered "unsafe " compared to the standards of the day.
I can't post link references for this, because it was pre internet.

The "cute" bit I think, was due to Hollywood

Re Norm's post, the following information would have been readily available to any prudent investor:
Quoting from Wiki:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group

1945 to 1970

After the war in Europe, in June 1945, Major Ivan Hirst[17] of the British Army Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (REME) took control of the bomb-shattered factory, and restarted production, pending the expected disposal of the plant as war reparations. However, no British car manufacturer was interested; "the vehicle does not meet the fundamental technical requirement of a motor-car ... it is quite unattractive to the average buyer ... To build the car commercially would be a completely uneconomic enterprise".[19] In 1948, the Ford Motor Company of USA was offered Volkswagen, but Ernest Breech, a Ford executive vice president said he didn't think either the plant or the car was "worth a damn."[20] Breech later stated that he would've considered merging Ford of Germany and Volkswagen, but after the war, ownership of the company was in such dispute that nobody could possibly hope to be able to take it over. As part of the Industrial plans for Germany, large parts of German industry, including Volkswagen, were to be dismantled. Total German car production was set at a maximum of 10% of the 1936 car production numbers.[21] The company survived by producing cars for the British Army, and in 1948, the British Government handed the company back over to the German state, where it was managed by former Opel chief Heinrich Nordhoff.
The Audi F103, in production from 1965 to 1972

Production of the Type 60 Volkswagen (re-designated Type 1) started slowly after the war due to the need to rebuild the plant and because of the lack of raw materials, but production grew rapidly in the 1950s and 1960s. The company began introducing new models based on the Type 1, all with the same basic air-cooled, rear-engine, rear-drive platform. These included the Volkswagen Type 2 in 1950, the Volkswagen Karmann Ghia in 1955, the Volkswagen Type 3 in 1961, the Volkswagen Type 4 in 1968, and the Volkswagen Type 181 in 1969.

In 1960, upon the flotation of part of the German federal government's stake in the company on the German stock market, its name became Volkswagenwerk Aktiengesellschaft (usually abbreviated to Volkswagenwerk AG).

[reeftool]

Fortunately (?) they are "too big to fail".

My parents had a red 1969 Beetle, bought new. It was cute and reliable.

In 1979 I bought a brand-new VW Rabbit with my dad's life insurance money.
I loved driving it - when it ran.

But fuel and ignition problems had it in the shop every month or so.
Once the warranty was up it cost a small fortune to try to keep running.
Some "economy car" for a poor college student!

When I finally wised up and gave up on it I vowed I'd never own another VW again...

Chris

No company is too big to fail. Yes, VW will get support from the German govt. if needed in the short term but most huge corporations fail as a result of a long, downhill slide over several years. VW just took a bad fall. While their stock value just dropped substantially, income hasn't been affected at all at this point. It's late in the year and 2015 will very likely turn a good profit and the stock will rebound because the stock market will respond to the short term "good news" that the scandal didn't cause too much hurt.

But people don't buy cars often. Leases average 3 years and purchasers every 5-10 years. Millions of potential sales in the next 2-3 years just went south and if there is difficulty in getting all these recalled cars repaired, even old time loyal owners will be looking elsewhere. This will even affect gasoline models because the company has lost the trust of of the consumer. Can they survive 5 years of lost sales? Will they be fighting it out for the #1 position worldwide in 10 years? It's going to depend a lot on how they handle the recall and regain the trust of their customers in the coming months. All the manufacturers have had recalls and screw ups but this was a deliberate deception and far worse than a defective part that can be blamed on a vendor.

[ChrisPlatt]

They were, in my recollection in Australia, as I was servicing on cars at the time in 1969 ,
and I believe in the industry at the time ,
considered "unsafe " compared to the standards of the day.
I can't post link references for this, because it was pre internet.

The "cute" bit I think, was due to Hollywood.

IIRC the heat exchanger was always a concern; if it failed exhaust could enter the cabin.
This danger was probably overstated as there were few documented cases.
But it makes a great urban legend.

The Beetle was indeed much smaller than most cars on the road in the 1960's.
When cars of differing size crashed in those days the smaller usually "lost".

But ours was fine for getting dad ten miles back and forth to work from Springfield Gardens Queens to Inwood Long Island,
and shopping in Queens and Nassau.
For the occasional summer vacation road trip the back seat was a little cramped for me and my older sisters
(fortunately my two brothers had moved out after their military service) but somehow we managed.

I remember Beetle drivers used to wave to one another as they passed on the road.

In USA VWs kept current with federally mandated safety requirements i.e. seat belts, headrests, marker lamps, bumper size and height etc.
Meeting emissions requirements was tougher. The air-cooled motor eventually couldn't pass,
and by the late 1970's when the water-cooled Rabbit came along the Beetle was history.

Hollywood? Even then I thought the Beetle was cute, yet I still have not seen "The Love Bug"...

Chris

[Tom S.]

If the assembly workers in Tennessee had voted to accept UAW as their union (which VW desperately wanted them to do) this would never have been revealed. Instead they stood by 'Right-To-Work' rules, and no Union.

They're making an example of VW for all the other manufacturers to contemplate. EVERYONE has something to hide - and US Gov. knows it.

"Nice little car company ya got there. Be a real shame if something happened to it."

AKA Chicago politics.

That's a load of crap and you know it. VW management was being pressured into accepting the UAW because of the union in Germany, which happens to hold seats on the board. To even suggest a union would intentionally cripple a company, thus losing all the jobs that pay union dues is ludicrous. Don't try to counter with an argument about strikes being the same either because the effects of a strike is short term, whereas the effects from this will last year's if not decades.

[wombat2go]

In USA VWs kept current with federally mandated safety requirements i.e. seat belts, headrests, marker lamps, bumper size and height etc.

Oh Did they do that?
Here is a photo of a 1995 Mexican.
I had to ride in these contraptions back to hotel when working in Monterrey in about 1997. In those , the passenger front seat was replaced by a boom-box and there were no seat belts.
Looking at this photo I see:
Outer wear on what looks like the original 5.60 by 15 tyres or the radial version. As I remember, the ones back in 1960's did exactly that, due to the sub-standard front end design which wore out.
The gasoline filler door indicates that the gasoline tank was immediately above the legs of the driver and front seat passenger, as I recall it was in 1969.
The front bumper stand-offs look like cold formed 38mm by 3mm steel which we used to query.

The car other than my above comments looks rather like the 1968 versions i worked on.
And I would be interested to hear about any information (referenced) that corrects my opinion that
this 1995 mexican is similar to its predecessor of 30 years.

And hence correct my opinion that the producer was recalcitrant and violating moral turpitude over past 50 years.

---

Last edited by wombat2go; 10-30-2015 at 06:25 PM.

[monochrome]

That's a load of crap and you know it. VW management was being pressured into accepting the UAW because of the union in Germany, which happens to hold seats on the board. To even suggest a union would intentionally cripple a company, thus losing all the jobs that pay union dues is ludicrous. Don't try to counter with an argument about strikes being the same either because the effects of a strike is short term, whereas the effects from this will last year's if not decades.

You missed the point. VW isn't going anywhere. The Justice Dept. won't indict it as a criminal enterprise, which is the only way it could be bankrupted in USA. The US government has put Non-Union states and companies on notice, as such: Don't fight Unions.

The government is the enforcer, not the UAW. But whatever. Never argue with labor.

[Rupert]

The government is the enforcer, not the UAW. But whatever. Never argue with labor.

Not sure I am following this?

If I start burning old used tires and polluting the air, the govt looks the other way if I only burn Union made tires? If I burn non-Union tires they are all over me?
So...it's not about the pollution, just who made the tires?

Regards!

[pleo]

Why could VW pass the emission ests?
Because these tests weren't live-cycle-tests!
They made the emission tests too cheaply !
So don't only blame VW but also every administration or company that enabled VW to pass these tests this way...

[normhead]

Why could VW pass the emission ests?
Because these tests weren't live-cycle-tests!
They made the emission tests too cheaply !
So don't only blame VW but also every administration or company that enabled VW to pass these tests this way...

I'll pass on that suggestion. VW knew they were cheating. I don't buy into the immoral viewpoint that it's OK to circumvent the intent of the law, which is designed to provide a level playing field, just because you can find some technical loophole. That type of person is a scourge on the face of humanity.

[Rupert]

They made the emission tests too cheaply !
So don't only blame VW but also every administration or company that enabled VW to pass these tests this way...

Now I'm starting to "get it"! It is not the tire burners fault, it is the fault of the Govt and match makers for making matches so easily available?

Regards!

[Parallax]

I'll pass on that suggestion. VW knew they were cheating. I don't buy into the immoral viewpoint that it's OK to circumvent the intent of the law, which is designed to provide a level playing field, just because you can find some technical loophole. That type of person is a scourge on the face of humanity.

Right. In law there's the "letter of the law", and the "spirit and intent of the law." VW wilfully and maliciously violated both and they need to go down hard for it.

[Rupert]

Right. In law there's the "letter of the law", and the "spirit and intent of the law." VW wilfully and maliciously violated both and they need to go down hard for it.

I agree with that......but Otis still claims that the matchmakers are responsible for all those tires he burns every winter to keep the little blind orphan squirrels warm.

Regards!

[Winder]

Volkswagen should learn to make refrigerators and be forced out of the auto-industry. I'm not one of those who favours less punishment for corporations than an individual convicted of the same crime would get.

The average shareholder these days is just as criminal as the corporation itself.

The average shareholder is a teacher, policeman, or other blue collar worker who's 401K happens to own VW stock.

VW wilfully and maliciously violated both and they need to go down hard for it.

If VW goes down hard then tens of thousands of innocent people who work for the company or work for the 3rd party parts suppliers go down hard.

Given that VW employs over 190,000 people globally it a safe bet that well under .01% of the employees of VW were involved in the criminal act. Those people need to go to jail, but the other 189,000 people don't really deserve to go "down hard". You guys are being absurd.

VW will pay hundreds of millions of dollars to government agencies who will be happy to have the money for doing nothing. The people harmed by the fraud won't get squat, and thousands of VW employees who did nothing wrong will lose their jobs. 3 or 4 people will go to jail. That is how these things play out.