[dws1117]

exactly, "accountability"

one of the other reasons i brought this up is that, i have come across people who have called themselves "professionals" in one way or another.

i have then taken their business cards, or looked them up, and i saw their work, and quite frankly i was very disappointed.

but you cant write to anybody stating "i belive the works of John Smith are not fit for sale, please look into the matter as i expect a higher level of quality"

all you can do is go and find someone else.

You've made some interesting points and I can't dispute them any more than has been done by others in this thread. What you stated, as quoted above, is the only thing that I have a slight disagreement with. Eye of the beholder. What you find unacceptable for sale may be fine art in someone else's eyes. Some like opera and ballet other's like Arthur Miller and Led Zeppelin.

[monochrome]

Is a professor a professional?

To act a like professional is more subjective - and more important.

[raz-0]

You essentially made up a word by ingoring all but one exceedingly narrow definition of it.

Being a member of a professional organization doesn't make you a professional. It makes you a member of an organization. That membership happens to be composed of professionals.

You are even going beyond ignoring the definition of the word to ignorng the purpose of various trade groups. Sure, an electrician can be in a union. They can assist in penalizing him for bad work, but they by no means guarantee his behavior nor the quality of his work. Heck they may actually actively prevent you from being able to hire someone who will do a better job simply because they have been doing good work for less time than this guy has been doing bad work. THne there are building codes and inspectors. However, they don't enforce their code on the electrician, but rather the property owner. The only way that gets back to the electrician is via a lawyer.

Most trade groups or governing bodies really don't ensure a quality of work. Usually, at best, they make it easier to determine if said professional has engaged in illegal behavior with regard to their profession, but even that isn't that common.

The government licenses physicians. The government licenses lawyers. This certifies that they passed a test and can legally practice their profession. It may allow them to engage in a profession, but until they get paid, they aren't professionals. HEck, under your definition, does that basic competency make them a professional, and if so, does being an ABMS certified medical specialist make them more or less professional? What can they really do to guarnatee that?

You can view the world how you want to, but your view is woefully incomplete and represents a drastic misunderstanding of common usage of a word and what it implies. How you present it is also likely to generate a bad impression.

[khardur]

I like this definition posted earlier in this thread:

"participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs"

That's all I have to say, anything else would be more repeats.

[DAZ]

I think that the term professional has an unfounded assumption by most people. This assumption is that if someone is a professional that will produce a good or superior product. The assumption is based on that if someone is getting paid for that product that no one would pay for something that is not at least good. It is also assumed that if that person is earning there living that way that they should produce a consistently good to superior product. As much as some would wish that this were true it is just an assumption. All that professional means is that someone paid that for that product. Nothing in this guaranties good let alone superior.

Now if the professional is not given what there customers want at the price they want they will go pay some other professional for that product. Notice that the last statement is not about good either. The customer wants what they want. If the product is photography then it may not have anything to do with what you, I or someone else thinks is good photography. If the product is lingerie photos for a catalogue, I may think that they are lousy photos (cut off the head and feet) but if that is what the customer wants then that is all that important. The professional photographer maybe good at lingerie photos for a catalogue but not at taking portraits. That is not to say that all professional photographers are one trick ponies but some are and they can make a living at it.

Now amateurs have the opposite assumption. If they were any good they would get paid for it. The important differents is that the only one who cares if they are good or not (what ever that is) is the one taking the photos. There are many reasons that amateurs are not professionals and how good they are is probably not the biggest reason.

DAZ

[mithrandir]

Does this mean we can stop worrying about professional cameras and just go about creating to the best of our ability with what we have?

[Venturi]

Does this mean we can stop worrying about professional cameras and just go about creating to the best of our ability with what we have?

You big silly, cameras can't be professionals. Only people with proper approved training and a regulatory body telling them what they can and can't do can be professionals.

Sorry, my cynical sense of humor just wouldn't let that one go...

[DAZ]

As the term professional camera is a sales term with no real meaning go do whatever you like as long as it is not hurting someone (other then you), I say go for it.

The best definition that I have heard for professional camera is a camera that has at least one thing about it that some professional thinks they can use to make them money. The assumption is if someone is willing to pay that much for a camera that it must take superior photos. They are usually very good cameras but if the professional needs it to do just one thing some other camera is not doing then they may be willing to pay the price of the camera. Even if the other 100 odd things the camera can do are of no use to them as long as those things don’t get in the way.

My camera can take 3 FPS but I can’t even think of a handful of time I have taken more then 2 frames at a time. That doesn’t mean the camera is a bad camera because I don’t need 3 FPS just that it can do things that I don’t need. The thing is to know what you need so you can get that and not what you think is impressive but not of any use to you. Magnesium camera bodes comes to mind as a possible example.

DAZ

[Gooshin]

You big silly, cameras can't be professionals. Only people with proper approved training and a regulatory body telling them what they can and can't do can be professionals.

Sorry, my cynical sense of humor just wouldn't let that one go...

i'm simply arguing the need to use the word "professional" as an adjective to describe yourself as a photographer.

its very easy in conversation to define yourself from everyone else by tacking on the word "professional".

what do you do?

- i do fashion photography

are you good

- yes, very, my work is highly regarded

then in my eyes you are a very highly regarded fashion photographer.


the word professional becomes diluted when applied to everyone doing anything with a (assumed) degree of competence and diligence,

i simply think that its... wrong?


again this is my look at the situation, which is why i started this thread to see what others have to say.

[DAZ]

That “the word professional becomes diluted when applied to everyone doing anything with a (assumed) degree of competence and diligence” for the most part I agree with you. But that ship has sailed and is not likely to come back. As for a new universal term to replace it I also don’t see coming and that not a good thing. The closest you could get now is to join some origination like f64 but that only works if they know what that is. If they knew what that originations standards were it would give them some idea about you. As this origination would most likely be specialized that would not help as a new universal term for with a (assumed) degree of competence and diligence.

If you were a founding member of f64 I would look at any photos from you much more closely for example.

DAZ

[Venturi]

i'm simply arguing the need to use the word "professional" as an adjective to describe yourself as a photographer.

its very easy in conversation to define yourself from everyone else by tacking on the word "professional".

what do you do?

- i do fashion photography

are you good

- yes, very, my work is highly regarded

then in my eyes you are a very highly regarded fashion photographer.


the word professional becomes diluted when applied to everyone doing anything with a (assumed) degree of competence and diligence,

i simply think that its... wrong?


again this is my look at the situation, which is why i started this thread to see what others have to say.

I was merely attempting to poke your ribs a little with that comment. I sincerely meant no offense.

I think I understand your points, I merely feel you are making too strict of usage on the term. I feel that if you restrict its usage to only those whose chosen (can't use the word profession...) vocation and/or career fall into a finite list of those with a 'governing body' or that require licensing you devalue the worth of the myriad other very worthwhile and respect worthy careers that exist.

Now if what you are getting at is when a given person says "I'm a professional Widgeteer" then I'm pretty much with you on that. It is pompous and arrogant. I'm rather disgusted, for example, by those who wear their PhD on their lapel.

I would agree that attaching the word "professional" to your vocational title is rather redundant. If I ask you what you do for a living and you were to reply "I'm a professional dentist" I would probably respond with something like "Well, I certainly hope so!" ... after I stopped laughing. On the other hand when used in referring to someone else "Joe is a professional photographer" adjectively as you mentioned then it is totally appropriate.

Now before you go calling me out for saying I am a "professional programmer" earlier in this thread keep in mind the context of my statement. I used the word specifically to emphasis that computer programming is my chosen vocation and that to become one there is significant skill, expertise and training required. I don't put "professional" on my business cards and really only ever use the term in daily life except to distinguish what I do from the script kiddies "working" for beer money.

Context is (almost) everything. There's no need to ask "Is there a professional doctor in the house?" since, last I checked, it isn't legal most places to practice medicine as an amateur. But when soliciting for other services specifying you want a "professional widget maker" usually clarifies things.

Bleh, and that was officially a long damn post. haha

[jshurak]

the word professional becomes diluted when applied to everyone doing anything with a (assumed) degree of competence and diligence,

It doesn't necessarily matter the degree of competence and diligence. Reviewing your original definition of the word, is it safe to say you got it from a textbook, as in you "very simple and understood textbook definition"?

That right there is the issue. Textbooks often contain a glossary.

By definition:

glos·sa·ry Audio Help /ˈglɒsəri, ˈglɔsə-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[glos-uh-ree, glaw-suh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ries.
1. a list of terms in a special subject, field, or area of usage, with accompanying definitions.
2. such a list at the back of a book, explaining or defining difficult or unusual words and expressions used in the text.

Looking at the first definition, the definitions located in a glossary are going to pertain to a special subject and therefore not necessarily applicable to anything outside of that special subject. Sure, you can use that definition, but its not going to make sense because its being used out of context. You stirred the pot back there at Dpreview because you undermined people's livelihood by applying the aforementioned definition of professional in the wrong context.

I feel that by restricting yourself to the definition of a word that you think works the best, your being naive or simply stubborn.

The term 'business professional' has become very commonly used over the years. There is a tendency now for words and/or titles to be used as 'fluff' to make things seem more important than they really are.
Example; I'm staying in Oahu and we stopped at a gas station in Honolulu yesterday and the foodmart inside was proclaiming that they were selling Kona Bill's World Famous Hot Dogs. What the f***, it's a hot dog. Personally I've never heard of them, but then again, I don't eat hot dogs.
Also like the phrase "leave it to the professionals" which basically means "pay someone else to do it if you're not competent or confident enough to do it yourself". This can apply to something as mundane as having your windows cleaned.
It's just language and society evolving, not necessarily in a good way but evolving just the same.

[Mike Cash]

By that line of reasoning, no one who works in an office could be considered a 'professional', they'd just be office workers.

Yet that exact same line of reasoning is what the police/prosecutors here in Japan use in case of traffic accidents with injuries to arrest and charge drivers with professional negligence....even if the driver is just a member of the general motoring public and not someone who drives for a living or has anything other than a bog standard operator's license.

Not saying that I agree with them or with Gooshin on this. Just pointing out that the particular line of reasoning he put forth is, by law and policy, actually implemented in at least this one circumstance.

[MRRiley]

You're applying the term 'professional' to a very specific context, one in which photography might not apply. I too am a business graduate. Words have many different definitions. Denying the usage of one definition is denying semantics itself. a quick search on a dictionary.com yields these results:

You're applying the term 'professional' to a very specific context, one in which photography might not apply. I too am a business graduate. Words have many different definitions. Denying the usage of one definition is denying semantics itself. a quick search on a dictionary.com yields these results:

pro·fes·sion·al
–adjective
1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3. appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4. engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.
6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.”
7. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.
8. of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment.
......

Marrian-Webster might put it better with their second definition of professional:

Main Entry: 1pro·fes·sion·al
Pronunciation: \pro-fesh-inal...\
Function: adjective
Date: 1606
1 a: of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b: engaged in one of the learned professions c (1): characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2): exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
2 a: participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b: having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c: engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>
3: following a line of conduct as though it were a profession <a professional patriot>
— pro·fes·sion·al·ly adverb

In these definitions, photographers can absolutely become professionals. Not so in your definition above. Books, especially business books put definitions on terms as they apply to the subject of the book itself. This definition is by no means wrong, just in a different context.

Very interesting that

1. the FIRST and thus most common usage definition of "professional" (per dictionary.com anyway) very clearly supports the ability of photographers who get paid to call themselves professionals.

and

2. neither of the dictionaries mentions that being part of or subject to a governing body or organization is a part of being a professional.

Sorta deflates Gooshin's original theory...

Besides, there ARE organizations which claim to support and "accredit" professional photographers, notably the Professional Photographers of America (PPA) and the American Society of Media Photographers (ASMP). Both have credentialing services and strict codes of conduct for their members. Would members of those organizations qualify Gooshin?