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08-30-2017, 08:20 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by timw4mail Quote
Use ANY other browser than Internet Explorer. It is the hernia that holds back everything good. Even Microsoft has given up on it in favor of Edge.
Interesting metaphor. Do hernias hold anything back? I guess power lifters.

"The only thing that held him back from being the next Michael Jordan was his hernia."

08-30-2017, 02:28 PM   #17
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Firefox all the way. I run a music website that has a password-entry section, and Edge won't work with it. My web guy says that it's because Microsoft don't stick to their own protocols when designing browsers; don't know if that's true but Firefox will do what Edge won't.
08-30-2017, 02:46 PM   #18
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On an unrelated note, Edge is awesome for viewing PDFs. It's not as slow as Adobe Acrobat or as crash-prone/unreliable as the FF PDF viewer.

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08-30-2017, 03:20 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
On an unrelated note, Edge is awesome for viewing PDFs. It's not as slow as Adobe Acrobat or as crash-prone/unreliable as the FF PDF viewer.
Adam, I would have to disagree with you, unless you are just viewing the PDFs. When my agency started switching to Windows 10, Edge became the default browser for everything. But it sucks when it comes to printing PDFs, especially double sided. With Edge I was unable to access many of the printers advanced features. I had to manually change my settings back to Adobe (no I'm not really a fan of Adobe but it works) and I regained full functionality. I also ended up changing my browser default back to Explorer to stop the hang ups of Edge on my in-car computer.

I would prefer to use Firefox, but I'm only a shift IT guy and they won't give me administrative access to install it on my computer.

08-30-2017, 03:28 PM - 1 Like   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by twilhelm Quote
Adam, I would have to disagree with you, unless you are just viewing the PDFs. When my agency started switching to Windows 10, Edge became the default browser for everything. But it sucks when it comes to printing PDFs, especially double sided. With Edge I was unable to access many of the printers advanced features. I had to manually change my settings back to Adobe (no I'm not really a fan of Adobe but it works) and I regained full functionality. I also ended up changing my browser default back to Explorer to stop the hang ups of Edge on my in-car computer.

I would prefer to use Firefox, but I'm only a shift IT guy and they won't give me administrative access to install it on my computer.
Yup, only for viewing. For printing I wouldn't use anything other than Adobe. Firefox often has trouble with graphics, such as UPS shipping labels.

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08-30-2017, 03:55 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Yup, only for viewing. For printing I wouldn't use anything other than Adobe. Firefox often has trouble with graphics, such as UPS shipping labels.
That's true about Firefox and graphics. In that case I'm forced to use Explorer.

What I'm curious about is if Microsoft will put the R&D into Edge to bring it up to speed and make it more useable, or if they're content with it being primarily used for Microsoft content.
08-30-2017, 04:49 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by microlight Quote
Firefox all the way. I run a music website that has a password-entry section, and Edge won't work with it. My web guy says that it's because Microsoft don't stick to their own protocols when designing browsers; don't know if that's true but Firefox will do what Edge won't.
Firefox no longer supports Java, which theoretically, though it turns out not really, was required for my online college class software.

QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
On an unrelated note, Edge is awesome for viewing PDFs. It's not as slow as Adobe Acrobat or as crash-prone/unreliable as the FF PDF viewer.
I think it is good for PDF viewing, but not for printing things in general. I go back to Firefox for certain printing duties.
08-30-2017, 04:59 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by twilhelm Quote

What I'm curious about is if Microsoft will put the R&D into Edge to bring it up to speed and make it more useable, or if they're content with it being primarily used for Microsoft content.
Edge is a new minimalist browser which uses a different rendering engine (Spartan) from the past. It's fast because it chooses not to support a number of legacy technologies.

Traditional Microsoft content relied on the Trident engine, so that's why Internet Explorer is still shipped with every copy of Windows 10, even if you can't see the shortcut for it.

IE still has to be used for Webmail at the organization I work for, because not all of the features of its version of Exchange are implemented in any other browser, just approximations.

I have Chrome, Edge, Internet Explorer and Firefox on my laptop because I need to be able to support all of them in my job as a Systems Engineer.

08-30-2017, 05:01 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Edge is a new minimalist browser which uses a different rendering engine (Spartan) from the past. It's fast because it chooses not to support a number of legacy technologies.

Traditional Microsoft content relied on the Trident engine, so that's why Internet Explorer is still shipped with every copy of Windows 10, even if you can't see the shortcut for it.

IE still has to be used for Webmail at the organization I work for, because not all of the features of its version of Exchange are implemented in any other browser, just approximations.
Rather, the website used proprietary features in Internet Explorer, instead of standard web features.
08-30-2017, 06:02 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by timw4mail Quote
Rather, the website used proprietary features in Internet Explorer, instead of standard web features.
There are 'de jure' standards and 'de facto' standards, Tim.

As a developer, you go with what you need, and if it's useful enough, people follow and something becomes its own standard - that's how Flash or Java ruled for so long, as examples.

Cryptocurrency is another technology that has no IETF standard.

But Bitcoin is the de facto standard.

We may all ultimately use something else, but that's exactly what should happen - something with defects that is regarded as the norm is replaced by something that's better.
08-30-2017, 06:30 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
There are 'de jure' standards and 'de facto' standards, Tim.

As a developer, you go with what you need, and if it's useful enough, people follow and something becomes its own standard - that's how Flash or Java ruled for so long, as examples.
That would be an argument...if Internet Explorer had kept up with the times, rather than constantly lagged like 5 years behind other browsers. Not to mention all the horrible layout, DOM, and JavaScript bugs...


Anyway...enough about the past. Edge is quite decent in comparison to it's older Sibling.
08-30-2017, 06:46 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by timw4mail Quote
That would be an argument...if Internet Explorer had kept up with the times, rather than constantly lagged like 5 years behind other browsers. Not to mention all the horrible layout, DOM, and JavaScript bugs...


Anyway...enough about the past. Edge is quite decent in comparison to it's older Sibling.
There are businesses all over the place that have apps that are the way they are because of the advantages for the developers back then. DCOM was in fact a nice technique to distribute tasks between computers, but inside a firewall. I was talking the other day to one guy who says Ruby's not great, but it's easy and there's a large pool of devs for an employer to draw from as a result.

I've seen Intranets that depended on IE6 long after XP was a dinosaur. And a statewide line-of-business Financial app that was effectively a DOS box running a DBase clone.

They are all products of their time, and their replacements will get superceded too, that's what keeps me in a job.

I'm not a power broker/policy maker, Tim, I just have to implement all the new things and support all the old stuff. So that includes Safari, both the iOS and MacOS versions, along with Android, since it's a different world we live in from ten years ago.
08-30-2017, 07:02 PM - 1 Like   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I've seen Intranets that depended on IE6 long after XP was a dinosaur. And a statewide line-of-business Financial app that was effectively a DOS box running a DBase clone.
Both are very disturbing, and I'd argue that an IE6 dependency is nearly negligent, which all the known security issues.

I'm not against stable software, but using soon to be unsupported software to develop new applications...

"Enterprise" software in general really scares me.

...

Somewhat more on topic, I tend to favor Firefox and Chrome over Edge or Safari, because they are cross-platform.
08-30-2017, 07:15 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by timw4mail Quote

I'm not against stable software, but using soon to be unsupported software to develop new applications....
No one did that, the software was 'of its time' - XP was a very successful product - but continued to be used long after it was intended to be replaced. Just like XP itself, really.

I'm telling you, this is *normal* in the Enterprise world, even in the Financial and Banking sector. Never mind the shiny MacBook Pro you see on someone's desk, it's the bunch of legacy servers and apps in the racks of their datacentre that's disturbing!

QuoteOriginally posted by timw4mail Quote

Somewhat more on topic, I tend to favor Firefox and Chrome over Edge or Safari, because they are cross-platform.
They've got their own standards, too, with plugins that are not interchangeable.

Whatever you favour, your workplace's IT choices win.

Last edited by clackers; 08-30-2017 at 08:22 PM.
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