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08-24-2008, 02:45 PM   #16
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as another note....

I would bet my butt that regardless of which DSLR you end up loving, it will not stay on green or P for too long 8)

I can see you in M with a wireless strobe or two set to highspeed synch, polarizing one flash and gelling the other, battery packs hooked up to each flash for faster recycle time....

...and creating entire sets of beautifully styled family portraits, senior photos for your kid...

haha

Nikon can do all of that too, but I believe the step from K20D to D300 is a loss in resolution and a hike in the price.....

How is the weather sealing on that Nikon?

08-24-2008, 03:42 PM   #17
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There is one point I'd like to know. When you take pictures of the kid (or dog), are those pictures done outside in bright light, or inside with dim lights? And did you try the Nikon D300 under the same conditions? If your shots are inside, with wide open lens and shallow depth of field, you might end up with the same results using the Nikon. Since the subject is moving (quite a bit, according to your saying), I would try to boost up the ISO, so you can use faster shutter speed\smaller diaphragm opening combo. That would help with motion blur (SR won't "freeze" your subject) and the increased depth of field would help keeping everything in focus. If you use a slow shutter speed, you are going to end up with the same result, no matter what camera you use. One more point. If you go to the "custom setting", adjusting the first item (program line) to "high speed" would help to avoid motion blur. If, on the other hand, you are having out of focus shots, than setting it on "depth" would help your issue. Whatever you do, I wish you good luck.
08-24-2008, 05:45 PM   #18
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Good luck

QuoteOriginally posted by solarisdreams Quote
warning: I mention Nikon gear and will probably be accused of dissing pentax and plugging other gear. If you're sensitive about this, don't read on. If you're interested in my k20d + DA* experience, read on. In anycase, leave the flame thrower at the door please.

-----

fyi, i have been blessed with a K20d, DA* 16-50, 10month baby, and a dog (among other things). The camera combo kills me when trying to capture pretty much anything that likes to move around lots. I have to say after 5 days of reading and 3 weeks of shooting, the AF (body) and SDM (lens) make for a not-very-desirable hit/miss ratio in terms of pictures in focus.

Call it my lack of technique, call it superior/inferior gear. I'm not here to say either way. But I just wanted you and most importantly PENTAX to know that I just tried the D300 today and it walks all over the K20d. Ofcourse, this is only with MY shooting technique which is pretty much point and shoot. Yes, I can fiddle around with the settings, but at the end of the day, I want the camera to operate in FULL auto when set to auto. No tweeking, just give me the darn image as best as the gear can do it.

Originally, I bought the Pentax setup because the total price was excellent and the reviews everywhere told me that the image quality is great. And after owning the camera, I do agree. The caveat is that you have to capture the image with the subject in focus. (duh right?) And that, my friends is why the D300 will be my next purchase. Yes, it's a more expensive camera but c'mon....PENTAX: Give me your K-whatever-D that can match the OVERALL performance as a mid-highend Nikon and I will buy it. EVEN IF YOU CHARGE MORE. Why? Because you make good lenses and they are priced very well. Same thing goes for SDM...license Nikon's AS-F or whatever..give me something that's fast + all your other current goodies and I'm there. The micro motor speed on this DA* lens just well....sucks.

Final note/gripe. I have no idea what PENTAX does not make a KILLER FF or DX camera. Yes, K20d is great for the price but like the PENTAX west coast rep told me before, companies don't make money on bodies. The bread and butter is in the glass. So...since your glass is so well priced, why not make a beat-all body so you can sell more glass? Hopefully they are working on that for announcement in early '09. Otherwise, I can't see pentax shaking off the "pentax is for geezers and i'm cheap fanboys" image. Like I said earlier...I would gladly pay double the k20d for a near d700 performance (don't care about live view or 3" screen) and spend the rest of the difference (between a proper D700 setup) and buy a whole lot of pentax glass since it's so (relatively) inexpensive.

end gripe. sorry if I bored you...just a little frustrated with pentax's direction - no wonder they lost money in this biz.

disclaimer, whether you believe it or not: k20d is my first D-slr. have tried the D3, D300, D700. Never tried a Canon SLR in my entire life. I've had 2 minolta film slrs before this. Some p&s - barely worth mentioning. Been shooting total of 12 years.
Somehow I suspect when you find out you get a whole bunch of misses with your D300 you will stangely fail to report this because it could not possibly the the camera. I mean its a Nikon right?
08-24-2008, 05:59 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by solarisdreams Quote
warning: I mention Nikon gear and will probably be accused of dissing pentax and plugging other gear. If you're sensitive about this, don't read on. If you're interested in my k20d + DA* experience, read on. In anycase, leave the flame thrower at the door please.

-----

fyi, i have been blessed with a K20d, DA* 16-50, 10month baby, and a dog (among other things). The camera combo kills me when trying to capture pretty much anything that likes to move around lots. I have to say after 5 days of reading and 3 weeks of shooting, the AF (body) and SDM (lens) make for a not-very-desirable hit/miss ratio in terms of pictures in focus.

Call it my lack of technique, call it superior/inferior gear. I'm not here to say either way. But I just wanted you and most importantly PENTAX to know that I just tried the D300 today and it walks all over the K20d. Ofcourse, this is only with MY shooting technique which is pretty much point and shoot. Yes, I can fiddle around with the settings, but at the end of the day, I want the camera to operate in FULL auto when set to auto. No tweeking, just give me the darn image as best as the gear can do it.

Originally, I bought the Pentax setup because the total price was excellent and the reviews everywhere told me that the image quality is great. And after owning the camera, I do agree. The caveat is that you have to capture the image with the subject in focus. (duh right?) And that, my friends is why the D300 will be my next purchase. Yes, it's a more expensive camera but c'mon....PENTAX: Give me your K-whatever-D that can match the OVERALL performance as a mid-highend Nikon and I will buy it. EVEN IF YOU CHARGE MORE. Why? Because you make good lenses and they are priced very well. Same thing goes for SDM...license Nikon's AS-F or whatever..give me something that's fast + all your other current goodies and I'm there. The micro motor speed on this DA* lens just well....sucks.

Final note/gripe. I have no idea what PENTAX does not make a KILLER FF or DX camera. Yes, K20d is great for the price but like the PENTAX west coast rep told me before, companies don't make money on bodies. The bread and butter is in the glass. So...since your glass is so well priced, why not make a beat-all body so you can sell more glass? Hopefully they are working on that for announcement in early '09. Otherwise, I can't see pentax shaking off the "pentax is for geezers and i'm cheap fanboys" image. Like I said earlier...I would gladly pay double the k20d for a near d700 performance (don't care about live view or 3" screen) and spend the rest of the difference (between a proper D700 setup) and buy a whole lot of pentax glass since it's so (relatively) inexpensive.

end gripe. sorry if I bored you...just a little frustrated with pentax's direction - no wonder they lost money in this biz.

disclaimer, whether you believe it or not: k20d is my first D-slr. have tried the D3, D300, D700. Never tried a Canon SLR in my entire life. I've had 2 minolta film slrs before this. Some p&s - barely worth mentioning. Been shooting total of 12 years.
My complaints with the k20 are similar. The image quality is very good, providing you can manage, by some miracle, to lock the focus onto the subject. I have a friend who shoots bird pictures who tells me his success rate has increased tremendously since his switch to one of the higher performance Nikon bodies.
I've pretty much given up on finding any group intelligence on this forum regarding this. It's either pointed out that of course the Nikon will work better, it costs more (where's the Pentax brand competition, I ask), or people will come up with pictures that aren't especially difficult for the AF to latch onto and say there obviously isn't a problem with the equipment, it must be the technique.
No accounting for fanboys who leave their brains at the door, but it is frustrating, since if Pentax listens to these fools, they probably won't see the need to build a higher performance body.

08-24-2008, 06:16 PM   #20
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>solarisdream: my 3 pics are taken with Pentax 50-200 kit lens.

>wheatfield: I pointed that of course Nikon will work better since it has 51 focus points. Friend of mine, with EOS 400D (Rebel XTi; with 17-55/2.8 IS USM on it most of the time) was stunned with K10D AF speed when tried mine. Stunned saying "wow, it's quite fast!" It was during daylight, but nobody is even trying to say that it's same in dim light, 'cause it's not. But in most of shooting situation, Pentax is completely on par with other cameras.
It seems to me that main problem is when somebody just says "my Pentax is slow focusing!". Ok, it's slow focusing, but in which situation? Shooting people on the street in day? Or in night? Some sporting event on stadium? Or in the hall?
Please folks, don't be so short on details
08-24-2008, 06:58 PM   #21
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so just by another camera

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
My complaints with the k20 are similar. The image quality is very good, providing you can manage, by some miracle, to lock the focus onto the subject. I have a friend who shoots bird pictures who tells me his success rate has increased tremendously since his switch to one of the higher performance Nikon bodies.
I've pretty much given up on finding any group intelligence on this forum regarding this.
Im just asking so make sure I get this right.....
You have given up on finding group intelligence on this forum regarding Pentax AF being inferior and Nikon AF being superior?

QuoteQuote:
It's either pointed out that of course the Nikon will work better, it costs more (where's the Pentax brand competition, I ask),
The Pentax brand competition is right here. I haven't shot much Nikon, so I cant attest to how well it works without me having to know how to work a camera.
But I shoot Pentax, and I will buy a K20D until I have a need to switch. And when people like my photography (sometimes they dont) and they ask about my cam..I tell them what I use and why. Its simple.

QuoteQuote:
or people will come up with pictures that aren't especially difficult for the AF to latch onto and say there obviously isn't a problem with the equipment, it must be the technique.

Please tell me you arent trying to bash the photography that was posted in response to a request by the OP to see some fast action/AF photography.
Maybe you are just saying that none of it is fast enough action/AF
Maybe you are just saying that the posted photography is waaay to easy to 'lock' focus on.

QuoteQuote:
No accounting for fanboys who leave their brains at the door, but it is frustrating, since if Pentax listens to these fools, they probably won't see the need to build a higher performance body.
wtf

who is a fool?
08-24-2008, 07:28 PM   #22
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MJB Digital,

Looked at yourFlicker pictures and I must say, they're excellent, both from a technical and composition point of view and many are quite striking and beautiful.

My point being, I'm assuming you took all the pictures with Pentax DSLR equipment and after viewing a number of them , I cannot see for the life of me, why anyone would leave Pentax and go to upper tier Canon*1 , or Nikon.

Your pictures are a graphic example of the fact that the Pentax DSLR and lenses are fully capable tools, capable of absolutely top quality work.

In the end, as with all excellent tools the final work is dependent on the skills of the craftsman.

*1 - The only reason to go with Canon over Pentax, I would think would be if you're a pro photographer who absolutely needs fast (ie; f2.8) super telephotos.

Other than that, I can't see any reason.

As far as Nikon goes, it is also a fine camera, but like Pentax , it doesn't have the # of lenses and accessories as does Canon.

In my humble opinion, I would say case closed when it comes to debating whether Nikon is better than Pentax.

08-24-2008, 09:36 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spex Quote
>solarisdream: my 3 pics are taken with Pentax 50-200 kit lens.

>wheatfield: I pointed that of course Nikon will work better since it has 51 focus points. Friend of mine, with EOS 400D (Rebel XTi; with 17-55/2.8 IS USM on it most of the time) was stunned with K10D AF speed when tried mine. Stunned saying "wow, it's quite fast!" It was during daylight, but nobody is even trying to say that it's same in dim light, 'cause it's not. But in most of shooting situation, Pentax is completely on par with other cameras.
It seems to me that main problem is when somebody just says "my Pentax is slow focusing!". Ok, it's slow focusing, but in which situation? Shooting people on the street in day? Or in night? Some sporting event on stadium? Or in the hall?
Please folks, don't be so short on details
I would hope that a Pentax can keep up with a Rebel in any situation. You do realizr though, that you were comparing the best camera Pentax makes to the lowest end camera that Canon makes? Move up Canon's ladder a few notches and see how your K10 fares.
08-24-2008, 09:39 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJB DIGITAL Quote
Im just asking so make sure I get this right.....
You have given up on finding group intelligence on this forum regarding Pentax AF being inferior and Nikon AF being superior?



The Pentax brand competition is right here. I haven't shot much Nikon, so I cant attest to how well it works without me having to know how to work a camera.
But I shoot Pentax, and I will buy a K20D until I have a need to switch. And when people like my photography (sometimes they dont) and they ask about my cam..I tell them what I use and why. Its simple.




Please tell me you arent trying to bash the photography that was posted in response to a request by the OP to see some fast action/AF photography.
Maybe you are just saying that none of it is fast enough action/AF
Maybe you are just saying that the posted photography is waaay to easy to 'lock' focus on.



wtf

who is a fool?
On this forum, anyone who questions the need for a better camera than what Pentax makes apparently.
In the real world though, I would say that the fools are the people who don't want Pentax to compete in the marketplace.
Which side of the fence are you on?
08-25-2008, 03:42 AM   #25
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Sigh. Another bashing thread where users spat over word choice and the OP is nowhere in sight.

Forget it. These threads are useless.

If you are switching cameras and moving away from the forum - bid adieu and head out.

That is all.

c[_]
08-25-2008, 05:12 AM   #26
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QuoteQuote:
In the real world though, I would say that the fools are the people who don't want Pentax to compete in the marketplace.
Which side of the fence are you on?

there are many aspects that pentax could compete in, such as medium format, or fashion and other photography not just fast action sports... when the hell will people realize that's not the only 'Pro' type of photography. granted I want pentax to more aggressively compete and I think a modern digital equivalent of the LX with interchangable finders could shoot pentax to the 'pro' standard in so many segements but jesus man why does everyone feel the need to compare? to what end? if you need to justifiy your purchase then maybe you shouldnt have made it.
08-25-2008, 05:58 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I would hope that a Pentax can keep up with a Rebel in any situation. You do realizr though, that you were comparing the best camera Pentax makes to the lowest end camera that Canon makes? Move up Canon's ladder a few notches and see how your K10 fares.
I guess you didnt' know that 400D has the SAME AF system as 30D. He's few notches above isn't it?
08-25-2008, 06:45 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
there are many aspects that pentax could compete in, such as medium format, or fashion and other photography not just fast action sports... when the hell will people realize that's not the only 'Pro' type of photography. granted I want pentax to more aggressively compete and I think a modern digital equivalent of the LX with interchangable finders could shoot pentax to the 'pro' standard in so many segements but jesus man why does everyone feel the need to compare? to what end? if you need to justifiy your purchase then maybe you shouldnt have made it.
Pentax is already very capable of competing in the arenas you've mentioned, and in fact, the 6x7 is still a much used camera by the fashion boys that still use film.
Film use is on it's way out though, and these cameras are falling into disuse. My 6x7 is coming up on it's 6th anniversary of not having been used at all in a very few days.

I use a K20 daily in the studio, with results that generally are better than what the Nikon boys I work with are getting.
Before that, I used a K10, with the same results, and before that, an istD.
Studio portrait subjects don't move around much (if they do, we staple them to the backdrop), and studio lights limit frame rates to a picture every couple of seconds, so the body performance is fine, and the lens performance (the real reason to use Pentax is the lenses) puts the pictures a cut above the competition.
However, we now live in a world where 3FPS and 11 point (and somewhat slow and unresponsive) AF are too far behind the technology curve to be taken seriously.
Now, to be fair to Pentax, their philosophy hasn't, on the surface, really changed very much for a very long time. My old Super Program/Motor Drive A combination would hit 3FPS, the LX and it's motor would hit 5FPS, and until the release of the Canon EOS line, and the Nikon F4, Pentax had as good a camera line as anyone, but since the beginning of the AF era, Pentax has been somewhat behind the specification curve.
What has happened recently though, is that that curve has taken a huge leap forwards, and Pentax hasn't really moved in response.
I'm actually quite surprised that the K20 didn't make more of a splash in the pro world, the 14mp sensor puts near medium format film quality into a fairly compact package, and for the most part, the imaging quality is very good indeed. I fear though, that it no longer matters what they put on the market, the brand is going to continue flying under the radar for the vast majority of buyers.
If you've been around long enough, you might remember that this is pretty much what happened to the German manufacturers back in the late 1950s, when the Japanese cameras started washing ashore, and within 10 years, most of the German 35mm brands were pretty much gone.
Now, a lot of this had to do with the post war political situation, I'm pretty sure that the Japanese got a lot more help with rebuilding their country than what Germany received, and I'm pretty sure that the German factories were much harder hit during WWII, and that the country was also stripped of it's engineers after the war because of the sudden distrust between the USA and Russia (if we don't get em, the Ruski's will was the thinking in post war America), so the Japanese probably had a bit of an edge anyway, but it doesn't alter the fact that the Japanese were releasing cameras that were ahead of the curve, and companies like Zeiss ended up out of the camera business, and became a lens maker for other cameras.
Now the German names are little more than old school sounding words tacked onto the lens bezels of Japanese and Korean cameras.
This is what happens to companies that let the world get too far ahead of them. Pentax is very close to letting the world get too far ahead of it, and if they insist on concentrating on lower end cameras, the world will continue to march forwards, taking Pentax from a has been company to a no longer is company.
They don't need a category killer in the top end market, but they do need a camera that can go head to with Nikon and Canon's second tier cameras, which is where the bulk of the pro and advanced amateur sales reside.
08-25-2008, 07:20 AM   #29
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QuoteQuote:
They don't need a category killer in the top end market, but they do need a camera that can go head to with Nikon and Canon's second tier cameras, which is where the bulk of the pro and advanced amateur sales reside.
by this you mean 150 point AF, 15 fps oh and the ability to predict what you want to focus on and do it before you even think about it right?

seriously how does the K20D not compete just as you say it needs to? and the upcoming 645D if done right could easily replace all of those aging 6x7's (and maybe allow me to pick one up on the cheap!) and shoot pentax back to the head of the medium format segment. all I know is that Pentax CAN survive without playing copycat and catering to sports photographers the way canon and nikon do. I think they can cement a place as a 'pro' camera maker by taking studio, fashion, medium format, etc. and never worry about sports photography. why make giant 2.8 600mm teles' when they can be making the worlds best prime lenses for the above mentioned uses? those who want the 2.8 600's and shoot at football games and other sports can go canon or nikon. not to say pentax cant get in on the game to an extent but I dont think they need to present themselves as another 'pro' sports camera maker to survive.


I still want a compact no frills digital with interchangeable finders though....why is nobody doing that? interchangeable finders is something pentax should be jumping on. =( that would be the only thing that would make me go digital only and give up film.
08-25-2008, 07:30 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
by this you mean 150 point AF, 15 fps oh and the ability to predict what you want to focus on and do it before you even think about it right?
Look at the specs of the D300, and then talk to some D300 owners about how responsive the camera is.
Or better still, do what I did and use one for a day.
You don't need to be shooting at 6fps to see the value of a camera that is capable of working that way.
I would love a Pentax with interchangeable finders, and if they could allow me to use my full set of LX finders on it, so much the better.

Last edited by Wheatfield; 08-25-2008 at 08:02 AM. Reason: Forgot some zeros.....
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