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06-28-2018, 03:49 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxfall Quote
Self driving car needs structured roads. In many countries roads does not meet that standard. They will be used but not everywhere.
I agree with that.
Perhaps with some sort of infrastructure, like wires embedded in the concrete under the surface markings.

06-28-2018, 01:05 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by LensBeginner Quote
I agree with that.
Perhaps with some sort of infrastructure, like wires embedded in the concrete under the surface markings.
What amazes me is that they didn't do wires first.
06-28-2018, 04:54 PM   #18
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Lensbeginner Since you are so skilled that all by your self you can program a automated car to shut down during bad weather (leaving the inhabitants to sit and freeze). Just how do you propose to put wires in the 4.12 million miles of public roads in the US. Who will set the standards auto companies, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, AT&T, Verizon? (All these cars will have to be tracked in order to know if they are in bad weather and if the big bad government has closed the roads) What are and who sets the standards. What happens if the "wire" is broken? How long will it take (remember that the interstate highway took decades to implement) to embed these wires and who will pay for it?

Granted, I am being picky and pedantic. However general weak statements offering hand waving solutions require something more than silence.
06-28-2018, 06:46 PM - 2 Likes   #19
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Autonomous vehicles will happen and it will happen as in the same way as the horse and cart was replaced with the car: Before we know it, autonomous cars will be faster and safer than human drivers, using the same roads without any embedded wires or signals.

It's important to understand what this means:

Level 1: This driver-assistance level means that most functions are still controlled by the driver, but a specific function (like steering or accelerating) can be done automatically by the car.

Level 2: In level 2, at least one driver assistance system of "both steering and acceleration/ deceleration using information about the driving environment" is automated, like cruise control and lane-centering. It means that the "driver is disengaged from physically operating the vehicle by having his or her hands off the steering wheel AND foot off pedal at the same time," according to the SAE. The driver must still always be ready to take control of the vehicle, however.

Level 3: Drivers are still necessary in level 3 cars, but are able to completely shift "safety-critical functions" to the vehicle, under certain traffic or environmental conditions. It means that the driver is still present and will intervene if necessary, but is not required to monitor the situation in the same way it does for the previous levels.

Level 4: This is what is meant by "fully autonomous." Level 4 vehicles are "designed to perform all safety-critical driving functions and monitor roadway conditions for an entire trip." However, it's important to note that this is limited to the "operational design domain (ODD)" of the vehicle—meaning it does not cover every driving scenario.

Level 5: This refers to a fully-autonomous system that expects the vehicle's performance to equal that of a human driver, in every driving scenario—including extreme environments like dirt roads that are unlikely to be navigated by driverless vehicles in the near future.

So, Level 5 is probably some time off. Level 4 is what most companies are working on at the moment. Many newer cars are already capable of either level 2 or level 3.

06-29-2018, 01:15 AM - 3 Likes   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
Lensbeginner Since you are so skilled that all by your self you can program a automated car to shut down during bad weather (leaving the inhabitants to sit and freeze). Just how do you propose to put wires in the 4.12 million miles of public roads in the US. Who will set the standards auto companies, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, AT&T, Verizon? (All these cars will have to be tracked in order to know if they are in bad weather and if the big bad government has closed the roads) What are and who sets the standards. What happens if the "wire" is broken? How long will it take (remember that the interstate highway took decades to implement) to embed these wires and who will pay for it?

Granted, I am being picky and pedantic. However general weak statements offering hand waving solutions require something more than silence.
I can't understand why you are picking on me... I'm never confrontational, and I merely expressed a personal point of view.

Regarding autonomous drive, I think there are far bigger issues, and far less infrequent than whiteout.


Regarding the wire question, I think that a paradigm change that big, if it ever comes to be, would justify an investment in infrastructures.
If there's the will and the advantage, it will be done, otherwise it won't, or other ways will be found to achieve the same result.

Regarding the implementation, I was thinking more of a "dumb" wire, that doesn't trasmit anything, something like a Hall effect sensor on the car, but there are other solutions that don't require the wire to be intact from start to end (e.g. RFID). Besides, some redundancy could be built-in.

"General weak statements" are often called "conversation", and I don't think one should be required to have a major in robotics or whatever to be allowed to express his point of view in the General Talk section of a Photography forum...

My 0.02c
06-29-2018, 01:17 AM - 3 Likes   #21
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Given the standard of driving I experienced this morning on the way to work the sooner we have autonomous vehicles the better
06-29-2018, 01:22 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by veato Quote
Given the standard of driving I experienced this morning on the way to work the sooner we have autonomous vehicles the better
Hahaha good point!
06-29-2018, 02:23 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by veato Quote
Given the standard of driving I experienced this morning on the way to work the sooner we have autonomous vehicles the better
I would rather have roads entirely to myself. I'm not really kidding.

06-29-2018, 05:26 PM - 2 Likes   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by veato Quote
Given the standard of driving I experienced this morning on the way to work the sooner we have autonomous vehicles the better
QuoteOriginally posted by LensBeginner Quote
Hahaha good point!
If the only thing they do is prevent hipsters driving Abarths from passing me at 80mph on the right Iíll be happy.
06-29-2018, 05:28 PM - 1 Like   #25
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I suspect freeway driving will be the first implementation. Interactive city driving, especially in densely populated cities, will be a much larger challenge. OTOH, they’re going to have to pry the steering wheel out of my cold, dead fingers.

Last edited by monochrome; 06-30-2018 at 02:46 AM.
06-29-2018, 05:34 PM - 2 Likes   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Because obvious human error is the single biggest cause of accidents, having only autonomous vehicles on the road will result in a massive drop overall in deaths and the economic costs of driving to a society. We can see that with autopilot technology in passenger aircraft.

But here and there, they will make errors that a mature, skilled, sober and clean human driver never would.
I don’t want higher authority making the world pillow-safe for me, and I don’t care one whit what all the other panty-waists think about that. But I use Uber when going out if I don’t want to drive after dark or into a sketchy part of town.

Injury falling on stairs is the most common cause of emergency room visits and the third most common cause of accidental injury in the home. By logic, stairs should be prevented in all new construction and an annually-renewable permit requiring a government licensed stair use course required before use in an existing home.

Last edited by monochrome; 07-04-2018 at 04:21 AM.
06-29-2018, 05:46 PM - 1 Like   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I donít want higher authority making the world pillow-safe for me, and I donít care one whit what all the other panty-waists think about that. But I use Uber when going out if I donít want to drive after dark or into a sketchy part of town.

Injury falling on stairs is the most common cause of emergency room visits and the third most common cause of accidental cause in the home. By logic, stairs should be prevented in all new construction and a permit requiring a government licensed stair use course required before use in an existing home.
I certainly see your libertarian point, Monochrome.

Don't know about your county but there are plenty of building codes where I am that regulate standards for the construction of household stairs, as well as electrical wiring, minimum door sizes and so on .... your home won't get a residency certificate without them.

The airline industry is incredibly regulated by bureaucrats and is the safest it's ever been.

06-29-2018, 06:01 PM - 2 Likes   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I certainly see your libertarian point, Monochrome.

Don't know about your county but there are plenty of building codes where I am that regulate standards for the construction of household stairs, as well as electrical wiring, minimum door sizes and so on .... your home won't get a residency certificate without them.

The airline industry is incredibly regulated by bureaucrats and is the safest it's ever been.
I thought about adding the sarc tag but I’m feeling flinty tonight. I don’t want to fly airplanes. They’re not cars and the analogy does not work. Flying is safer than walking!

We have strict building codes also - everyone has handrails and Rise:Run ratio rules. A good friend and great athlete broke his back falling down in-code stairs - he can hardly walk now.

I do get annoyed that higher authority wants to step step in to protect me from the boneheads who drink and drive (50% of fatal accidents in the US involve alcohol) and the 16 year old HS student who ran into my rear at a stop light going 35 mph while texting (all verified by black-box data and phone records). Distracted driving is involved in over 40% of total accidents in the US. So I lose my personal freedom and independence because all the other anti-social jerks can’t behave themselves and follow basic rules.

I suppose driving is a state-licensed activity performed on public rights-of-way, so I’ll have to go along, but life is dangerous. More efficient? OK. Better resource allocation - right up my alley. But don’t use the safety excuse. People are perfectly capable of driving safely together if everyone drives safely. But there’s a small number of antisocial jerks. They should be denied access to driving and then let the good guys keep their independence (and money, because I’ll pay for all this new technology).

As far as the accident, thank god I drive a Honda Accord, so I am not injured, but I’m out a perfectly good vehicle for insurance money that won’t even make a down payment on a lease replacement. Daddy has probably already bought her a new Jeep. My attorney says Daddy is going to buy me five new Cadillacs.

I’m not convinced regulated, fully autonomous driving is the answer to the little rich girl’s misbehavior.

/non-political, friendly, Friday-night Rant.

Last edited by monochrome; 06-29-2018 at 06:20 PM.
06-29-2018, 06:04 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
So I lose my personal freedom and independence because all the other anti-social jerks canít behave themselves and follow basic rules.
Always the dilemma.

It is the gun laws problem writ large.

Sorry to hear about the accident, glad justice will be done, and that young lady needs to take Ubers from now on or be one of the first to be mandated an autonomous car.



06-29-2018, 06:54 PM - 3 Likes   #30
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These vehicles are advancing quite rapidly. And whereas humans have only one pair of eyeballs with a very limited field of view, these vehicles have full-time 360į sensors usually of multiple types. And whereas humans have reaction times of about 140 msec (assuming they are not texting, fiddling with the radio, glancing at their passenger, day dreaming, drunk, tired, sick, too old, etc. etc.), the machines can have reaction times of a few milliseconds.

As for driving in "white out conditions," humans really suck at it, too. And the drivers that do make it home do so more by luck than skill because they invariably drive at a speed with a stopping distance much greater than the distance of visibility. Almost any accident where the driver "lost control" is a case where the driver never really had control.
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