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10-01-2008, 05:49 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Damn Brit Quote
CW, please note that I included this sentence; 'I know it was under duress but he still did it and that's not the American way so I'm led to believe.' I never questioned the man himself but don't you think that if he was a Democrat, the Republicans would have been all over that like a rash and it would have been another 'Swift Boat' attack.
As far as him insisting that the other guy goes first, yes, I agree that was honourable but if he hadn't done that, probably he wouldn't be running for President now.

One other point, ever see the 'Manchurian Candidate', the VC could have done an awful lot of f@#$%^& around with his mind in those five years. I'm not saying that happened, but who knows?
Gary, I did note the "under duress". To be honest, I don't think that "confession" would be an issue Democrat or Republican. There are way too many of us military veterans of that time frame that would be rather angry if such a thing was used for political purpose. For most of us, POW/MIA is off limits for political purposes unless it's promising to find the remains of the ones transferred to the USSR and never returned.

LOL Yes, I saw the Manchurian Candidate...both versions. I think the original was the better of the two. However, I don't think the North Vietnamese were that crafty. Their approach to the prisoners was rather brutal, the equivalent to swatting a mosquito with a sledgehammer.

CW

10-01-2008, 07:29 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by focustnv Quote
I am amazed that no one paid attention to this original post by Benjamin Kanarek. Why would this Conspiracy nonsense by a "Mark Crispin Miller" be considered as worthy to read? Only the most gullible and paranoid are drawn to Conspiracy theories.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you goes the saying Seriously though, don't conflate gullible and paranoid, they're two completely different things.

Second, Crispin Miller is a very reputable scholar of all things related to the JFK assassination (and I'll say now it wasn't Oswald, gonna bite?). He also happens to be a professor at New York university, and call them whatever you like for hiring him, he must be at least passable as a scholar else they wouldn't have him on as staff. That being said I haven't read any of his recent work so maybe he's gone off the deep end, maybe not.
10-01-2008, 07:30 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by Okami Quote
Well, having family in Paris and a few other cities in France might help. Cousin married a beautiful French girl about 4 years ago and all our families see each other quite a lot.

I think people get it twisted about America... I'm sorry but our news station hardly covers things about other countries for a very long time. I don't see how it's possible you see hateful bashing regularly.

Heading to lunch but the rest of this i'll probably write in pm to you
I am french, lived in the US for 5 years (I was there in 2001) and the difference between the french media and the american media (on the topic of the other country) is that there is actual facts behind what the French media talks about. When France is mentioned in the American media (you are right it is not very often) it is always in a negative way...
10-01-2008, 07:52 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Damn Brit Quote
War doesn't improve peoples lives, debt doesn't improve peoples lives, poor nutrition doesn't improve peoples lives. Ignorance is no longer bliss.
What about the Revolutionary war. Or the Civil War? Or WWII?
Without the Revolutionary war freed us from England's rule. The Civil war pretty much started blacks on the road to freedom. (It may be a long road but at least the first miles are driven) And WWII stopped Hitler and Japan.
The problem with being a "superpower" is every once in a while you need to flex your muscle.
And everytime we had to flex, we always went back and rebuilt the country. And we are always ready to help when other countries face a major (or minor) disaster. Just look at the sunami relief effort, and what we wanted to do in Burma. When disaster hits here who helps US out?
And lets face it. Most of the media here is controlled by the liberal side. Just look at the Communist News Network (CNN)
And actually the deregulation of the banking industry started with the Carter administrationand was exacerbated by the Clinton admin. The only way the CEO's could make more was to start taking subprimes. And the 3 biggest recipients of money (contributions, etc) from Freddie and Fannie were (drum roll please) Chris Dodd, Barack Osama and Barney Frank.
Of course you also have to love his version of Al Gore, when FDR got on the TV. I don't think there was that many around.

And unlike Michelle Obama, I am and always have been proud to be a citizen of the U.S. I thank God that my grandparents escaped from Russia and left Italy.
Whoever wins, I will still admire and respect my liberal friends on the forum. Politics has nothing to do with my photography, but it's great for conversation so long as we leave the conversation as friends.
GK


Last edited by graphicgr8s; 10-01-2008 at 08:14 PM.
10-01-2008, 08:43 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote
Most of the media here is controlled by the liberal side. Just look at the Communist News Network (CNN)
isn't Fascist - Oligarchic - Xenophobic (FOX) News #1, is it ? they claim they are...
10-01-2008, 09:04 PM   #81
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Our liberal members will love this.
***************************
The Rich Are Staging a Coup Right Now
Posted by Michael Moore, MichaelMoore.com at 8:36 AM on September 29, 2008.

Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this.

The Rich Are Staging a Coup Right Now | PEEK | AlterNet

Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies -- who must soon vacate the White House -- are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.

Just read the first four paragraphs of the lead story in last Monday's New York Times and you can see what the real deal is
10-01-2008, 09:33 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote

... And WWII stopped Hitler and Japan.
To understand WWII, you must understand what happened in WWI. That war was avoidable and millions died in a pointless slaughter. And the rise of Hitler and WWII were also avoidable. Tens of millions died in that pointless slaughter. Bad decisions by all players in the 1930s resulted in being backed into a corner and war became inevitable.

The rise of Japan as a modern military power can be directly linked to to forceable entry into Japan by Commodore Perry (in the 1860's, as I recall). In an act of "gunboat diplomacy," Perry forced Japan to accept an unwanted U.S. presence in Japan. This led to the introduction of Western technology in Japan and the eventual rise of Japan as a modern, armed and aggressive military presence in the Pacific. Respecting Japan's desire for isolation in 1860 would have prevented Pearl Harbor in 1941.

QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote

The problem with being a "superpower" is every once in a while you need to flex your muscle.
More gunboat diplomacy. This is precisely the reasoning that led to the current U.S. debacle in Iraq. Use of military force appears to be desirable in the short run, but it seldom achieves the desired goals in the long run. There are hundred if not thousands of examples in history from ancient times to the present. War is usually avoidable and never desirable.

QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote

And actually the deregulation of the banking industry started with the Carter administration and was exacerbated by the Clinton admin.
Only partially correct. In 1980 the Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act was enacted, loosening up some federal controls over savings and loans. This would have been while Carter was president, as Reagan didn't take office until 1981. In 1982 the Garn-St. Germain Depository Institutions Act was enacted, deregulating the Savings and Loan industry. This act by the Reagan administration paved the way to the S&L disaster in the late '80's.

In 1999, Sen. Phil Gramm led the fight for what the financial industry had wanted ever since the New Deal: repeal of the key provisions of the Glass-Steagal Act regulating the banking industry. Gramm and two other Republican senators wrote the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, passed by a Republican Congress and signed by President Clinton. Sen. McCain voted for the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. This law allowed banks to own stock brokerages and insurance companies. By removing the safeguards put in place by FDR during the New Deal, the Republican opened the door to the current financial market meltdown.

In 2000, Gramm pushed for and McCain voted for (and Clinton signed into law) the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, which made legal the mortgage "swaps" that are a major part of today's bad debt.

Note former Sen. Gramm also recently wrote Sen. McCain's economic plan and was the odds-on favorite to be a President McCain's Treasury Secretary ... at least until Gramm called everyday Americans complaining about the current economic condition "whiners."

10-01-2008, 09:59 PM   #83
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Lets just sum this up for what it is............

America sneezes and the whole world catches the flu.

Or as I heard one guy put it......

America farts and the whole world smells it.

Unfortunately for those of us outside the US, whatever happens there affects us.
10-01-2008, 10:59 PM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote
What about the Revolutionary war. Or the Civil War? Or WWII?
Without the Revolutionary war freed us from England's rule. The Civil war pretty much started blacks on the road to freedom. (It may be a long road but at least the first miles are driven) And WWII stopped Hitler and Japan.
The problem with being a "superpower" is every once in a while you need to flex your muscle.
And everytime we had to flex, we always went back and rebuilt the country. And we are always ready to help when other countries face a major (or minor) disaster. Just look at the sunami relief effort, and what we wanted to do in Burma. When disaster hits here who helps US out?
And lets face it. Most of the media here is controlled by the liberal side. Just look at the Communist News Network (CNN)
And actually the deregulation of the banking industry started with the Carter administrationand was exacerbated by the Clinton admin. The only way the CEO's could make more was to start taking subprimes. And the 3 biggest recipients of money (contributions, etc) from Freddie and Fannie were (drum roll please) Chris Dodd, Barack Osama and Barney Frank.
Of course you also have to love his version of Al Gore, when FDR got on the TV. I don't think there was that many around.

And unlike Michelle Obama, I am and always have been proud to be a citizen of the U.S. I thank God that my grandparents escaped from Russia and left Italy.
Whoever wins, I will still admire and respect my liberal friends on the forum. Politics has nothing to do with my photography, but it's great for conversation so long as we leave the conversation as friends.
GK
You give a lot of sound arguments for war but in every case there was always another way and should have been IMO.

Are you kidding me have you heard of Murdoch, Clear Channel?

The deregulation of the banking industry started when the corporations came up with the idea. It actually started in the thirties with GW's dear grandpa.

Your next two points I can't argue with, as I don't know.

I've never understood the idea of being proud to be an American or any other country.
Delighted to be American, happy to be American I can understand.
Pride signifies an achievement of some sort. Americans are born American it's just a matter of procreation and geography, or people become American.
I'm glad for you that your parents got out of Russia and Italy, really, but shouldn't the pride be in the achievement of escaping and gratitude to America for welcoming them?

I love this country that I have chosen to call my home and I love the people around me and who I meet. But I do see things with a foreigners eye still, I'm gradually immersing myself.

Unfortunately we can argue until the cows come home but the scariest thing about this country for me is the unacceptably high amount of undereducated people who aren't informed about what's going on in the world and for all I know will decide who to vote for based on the commercials all sides run. And these seem to be merely smears and lies.

An an under educated population is easier to control.
10-01-2008, 11:26 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by deudeu Quote
I am french, lived in the US for 5 years (I was there in 2001) and the difference between the french media and the american media (on the topic of the other country) is that there is actual facts behind what the French media talks about. When France is mentioned in the American media (you are right it is not very often) it is always in a negative way...
This I can agree with, but you obviously know its because the media general here in general focus on bad things instead of good. Which is quite sad the more i think about it.
10-02-2008, 05:57 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Okami Quote
This I can agree with, but you obviously know its because the media general here in general focus on bad things instead of good. Which is quite sad the more i think about it.
Sad yes. But alas, good news just doesn't sell papers. Actually even bad news isn't selling many papers anymore.
10-02-2008, 06:04 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by Damn Brit Quote
You give a lot of sound arguments for war but in every case there was always another way and should have been IMO.



I've never understood the idea of being proud to be an American or any other country.
Delighted to be American, happy to be American I can understand.
Pride signifies an achievement of some sort. Americans are born American it's just a matter of procreation and geography, or people become American.
I'm glad for you that your parents got out of Russia and Italy, really, but shouldn't the pride be in the achievement of escaping and gratitude to America for welcoming them?

I love this country that I have chosen to call my home and I love the people around me and who I meet. But I do see things with a foreigners eye still, I'm gradually immersing myself.

Unfortunately we can argue until the cows come home but the scariest thing about this country for me is the unacceptably high amount of undereducated people who aren't informed about what's going on in the world and for all I know will decide who to vote for based on the commercials all sides run. And these seem to be merely smears and lies.

An an under educated population is easier to control.
Unfortunately war is one of those necessary evils. My example for instance. I don't like to fight and try to avoid it at all costs. But if you keep trying to take what is mine I WILL take you down. Or die trying. And it takes a lot to get me riled (unlike in my youth) But in today's climate how do you negotiate with a terrorist? How do you reason with someone who thinks killing him/herself and a bunch more for Allah will bring them rewards?
10-02-2008, 06:39 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote
Unfortunately war is one of those necessary evils. My example for instance. I don't like to fight and try to avoid it at all costs. But if you keep trying to take what is mine I WILL take you down. Or die trying. And it takes a lot to get me riled (unlike in my youth) But in today's climate how do you negotiate with a terrorist? How do you reason with someone who thinks killing him/herself and a bunch more for Allah will bring them rewards?
To be philosophical about it, your life is really the only thing you "own." How can you own rocks that have been around for billions of years? How can you own sky or space for that matter? Or, providing you put stock in the notion of ownership, how can you own something that was stolen from it's original possessors a few hundred years ago after they were here for thousands?

I might also ask if you've ever met a terrorist.. You might find that their concerns are alarmingly similar to yours. The difference between your taking up arms against a perceived attack on your way of life and theirs is simply a matter of degree -- whereas the you have a trillion dollar plus military industrial complex with which to keep "insurgents" (citizens of other countries actually) subjugated around the world, the "terrorists" (or rather, those who are being subjugated) have what again? Certainly not any degree of stability when Uncle Sam comes knocking and attempts to "democratize" a culture that predates it again by thousands of years.
10-02-2008, 10:25 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote
Unfortunately war is one of those necessary evils. My example for instance. I don't like to fight and try to avoid it at all costs. But if you keep trying to take what is mine I WILL take you down. Or die trying. And it takes a lot to get me riled (unlike in my youth) But in today's climate how do you negotiate with a terrorist? How do you reason with someone who thinks killing him/herself and a bunch more for Allah will bring them rewards?
Who said war has to be a necessary evil? More dialogue = less war (which shouldn't have started in the first place IMO, any war) = less lives lost. Unfortunately, for the corporations, that means less profit. Go figure.

The British government negotiated with the IRA from the get go (you know, that terrorist group whose main source of funding was the US for a long time). I remember when the Grand Hotel was blown up and came close to taking out the prime minister and who knows how many more members of the government. I felt and heard the blast from four miles away. They weren't successful and life went on.

Maybe if the US had a dialogue in the first place with these people, there would no longer be US military bases in Saudi Arabia and there would be a couple of tall buildings still standing in New York.

Terrorism is disgusting, but there are different forms of terrorism you know. Al Quaida is the booger man to keep the population preoccupied while the government and corporations are systematically terrorising them on a day to day business. Sometimes I think that kind of terrorism is worse than the bombs at least terrorists don't try and disguise their intentions.

What's the benefit of being 'safe' when people are losing their homes and 'tent cities' are sprouting up in big cities. To all those people who have lost everything in recent times, a bomb would probably be just like another day at the office.
10-02-2008, 10:39 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote
Unfortunately war is one of those necessary evils. My example for instance. I don't like to fight and try to avoid it at all costs. But if you keep trying to take what is mine I WILL take you down. Or die trying. And it takes a lot to get me riled (unlike in my youth)
What is this, the John Rambo view of world history? Conflicts have much more complicated causes and such over-simplifications serve to justify unreasonable use of military force. You could argue that France took the Alsace from Germany following WWI and extracted unreasonable reparations in the Treaty of Versailles. Therefore Germany is justified is starting a war that killed 50 million people to get back what was theirs.

No, the real cause of WWII was that the conflict from WWI was not resolved but worsened by the Treaty of Versailles. Stupid U.S. economic policy with unregulated banking and incredible stock market greed trigged a world-wide Depression creating the conditions for the failure of the German democracy and the rise of Hitler to power. Stupid decisions by French, Soviet and British governments made the situation worse, and U.S. isolationism added to the problem. I discussed the root of Japan's dislike of the U.S. in my previous post, and the U.S. imperialist ambitions in the Pacific created conflict with similar ambitions by Japan. Thoughtful leadership, sharp diplomacy and prudent economic policy could have prevented WWII and saved 50 million lives. Instead, the corrupt political systems in various countries and the incompetent leaders that it produced gave us a massive slaughter of innocent people, a totally destroyed Europe, and a nuclear showdown between the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R.

And no, I would not like to live in a world ruled by the Nazis. But the whole problem arose from stupid leadership in many countries and could have been avoided before a war was inevitable.

QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote
But in today's climate how do you negotiate with a terrorist? How do you reason with someone who thinks killing him/herself and a bunch more for Allah will bring them rewards?
Government propaganda will have you believe that there is always some bad guy that must be destroyed at all costs: the Nazis, the Commies, the Terrorists, etc. Hitler was quite effective in using propaganda for keeping the German people in line. It's all a load of B.S. designed to keep the masses in line with whatever policy the government chooses to employ. Better to understand the root cause of the problem and address the underlying issues than to just send in the troops to kill all the "bad guys." The "killing the bad guys" approach failed in Vietnam, Iraq, and the Palestinian-Israeli conflicts, and will continue to fail in the future.

Last edited by GaryML; 10-02-2008 at 11:33 AM.
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