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03-03-2019, 04:11 PM - 2 Likes   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by photolady95 Quote
Yes, but my point was, Mark, that I don't like the idea that Windows 10, sends information back to Microsoft about what I do on my computer. I'm locked and blocked on this Windows 7, Microsoft doesn't get anything from my computer nor does any one else.
I suppose I'm not that worried. AutoDesk and Adobe collect information every time I use their products. Windows will, by now, presumably, realise I'm not an assassin for hire!

03-03-2019, 04:27 PM - 2 Likes   #47
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And MS is not collecting personally Identifiable Information (PII) but that is how Google monetizes the user in Chrome. Win 7 Pro was wonderful but having the better compatibility and Direct X 12 in Win 10 is a great thing. And Win7 is definitely not as secure as Windows 10.
03-03-2019, 05:04 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by photolady95 Quote
I bought my Windows 7 Professional 64 bit from Newegg.com for $139.00.

I don't buy off the shelf computers, mee, I build my own.

We can argue this to the ends of earth and still comes down to what ever the OP wants, not what we want or prefer.


When I had a Mac, I argued with anyone who owned a PC, that Mac/Apple was better for graphics, now I see myself doing the same with my PC. So I'm done here. Let's get this back on topic just for the same of the OP. Please.
My comments weren't directed to you but to Mark.. and I think we are on topic as these are aspects that should be considered when buying a new computer. Upgrade policy and pricing are important factors one should consider... which ever direction one takes.
03-03-2019, 05:10 PM - 2 Likes   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
I suppose I'm not that worried. AutoDesk and Adobe collect information every time I use their products. Windows will, by now, presumably, realise I'm not an assassin for hire!
I'm sure Microsoft's secret ninja lab will keep cycling through the telemetry data until they find their candidates.

They all collect data. Chrome browser records what you search for, Google search page records what you search for, each site with Adsence code is doing the same, most company pages have an account that sniff the pages you viewed and/or products you've purchased. Probably don't want to make it easy for them, but I'm aware it is impossible to use the internet today and not leave some kind of paper trail.


I remember a couple years back a department store knew some guy's daughter was pregnant before he knew. IIRC he caught wind when the store sent him coupons or a flyer for baby items and the store did that because they were tracking purchase history. They know.

I would like to see my govt file should I have one.. I suspect that could be interesting... or not 'guy surfs at photography forums.. not a candidate for the ninja lab'

03-03-2019, 08:35 PM - 1 Like   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote

Our computer is a good Samsung laptop that seems fine. It wasn't a cheapy...so I don't think it is our computer, but then I'm no expert..

My wife also has an Apple Tablet and she is quite happy with that.

Les
Glad to hear you were able to make a comeback from the unsolicited update dysfunction. Whilst this phenomenon is not unique to PC, the Apple operating system is one slick and robust system indeed; even when updates don't quite go to plan, it is not a major drama to get back on track with it. That has been my experience thus far. I am no computer nerd to get into programming (and how do people invest their time into this unless it is their area of expertise?), so the MacOS has been my reliable workhorse for over 15 years. I've never looked back. If the MacOS were available on PC, I might think longer and harder about the cost differential, but the decision is so much easier with this not being the case.
03-03-2019, 09:10 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
I am no computer nerd to get into programming (and how do people invest their time into this unless it is their area of expertise?)
The answer to this is easy -- it is the same as camera nerds that somehow can invest their free time into taking photos. Or car nerds can invest their free time into wrenching on cars. Or sports nerds can invest their free time on conditioning and playing sports. Got to start somewhere... it is never anyone's area of expertise until they spend time making it their area of expertise.


It is probably just unusual because it is not the thing that wows you. The other day I stumbled upon some youtube video of an old, retired man who has a giant model train railyard behind his home. So big he rides on it like a child. Probably spent at least 100k dollars on the set up. I cannot imagine spending the time and money on such a hobby. But apparently it is his thing. So be it.


That said Windows doesn't need programming skills to work. For the past few versions it has a rollback feature that makes it rather easy to get back to a point in time where the computer was stable. Provided you have it enabled and had free space for it to make snapshots. I had an older mildly computer literate family member tell me last week it saved their bacon. They did something that borked their pc and was able to easily just rollback to a time before and bamo back in business in a few minutes.

At this point Mac vs Windows PC I don't think there is any definitive reason to pick one over the other beyond comfort with how the OS handles apps / functions or some niche piece of software. Final Cut Pro and Logic Audio are both really nice and Mac Only... there are a few smaller photo apps that are Mac only too.


That said, if you game then it is probably Windows all the way. Otherwise, try them both and just see which one feels right to you.

Oh I guess one other plus is Apple tech support has reps in the USA. So you get an actual native English speaker.. and not some guy who claims his name is Steve and has a thick Indian accent you can barely understand.


The last time I called HP a few years back with a question on my laptop, I had to ask the rep to repeat something a few times before I could understand him... he seemed a little frustrated, but when you're enunciating vowels like you would in Hindi but are speaking English, well it is going to be a long day.
03-03-2019, 09:18 PM   #52
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My Windows 7 is secure. Perhaps others Windows 7 isn't. But I don't use other peoples computers, I only use mine.

I thought I asked everyone to let this discussion get back on topic for the sake of the OP. Can we now do that and stop arguing about which windows OS is better, Windows 7 or Windows 10. If OP buys a Mac, this discussion is moot point.
03-03-2019, 10:23 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by photolady95 Quote
It's all the little things that Microsoft insists you do that you don't want to do on a computer you own, not them, that keeps me from going to Windows 10. I know some computer techs that use Windows Enterprise and they said this version isn't so intrusive and when I finally have to change, I will use that one.
Buy Windows 10 Pro. It gives the capability to control far more detailed setup than Home. if you use Home then you are basically letting Microsoft be your support staff. They will make decisions for you.

I have been running Microsoft OS's since MS-DOS 1.0 and nearly everything in between. I was a Beta tester on Windows NT and Windows 95 (put it on my son's machine). I managed Windows PC's from Windows 286 - Windows 7 for fortune 500 global corporations. I have always used the "Pro/Ultimate/Workstation" versions of the OS's along with various versions of the Server product. Always buy Pro, always use local accounts and when in doubt build your own workstations - because it is hard to build your own laptop.

I currently have Windows 10 Pro 1809 x64 running on a 2008 Toshiba Portege tablet PC - for the math impaired that is a 11 year old device - where the only Hardware changes to it was a bit more memory (6GB from 4GB) and a SSD. Heck even the pen still works, it is not the fastest thing in the world but it gets the job done. (I use it when I go on vacation to do quick and dirty edits in LR 6.14 to show off to my family via OneDrive) I have Windows 10 Pro 1809 running on my 4 PC's and my wife's PC. People who are worried about intrusion by Microsoft don't use Google, Facebook, Twitter etc. those people are giving away their privacy.

03-03-2019, 10:36 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
Buy Windows 10 Pro. It gives the capability to control far more detailed setup than Home. if you use Home then you are basically letting Microsoft be your support staff. They will make decisions for you.

I have been running Microsoft OS's since MS-DOS 1.0 and nearly everything in between. I was a Beta tester on Windows NT and Windows 95 (put it on my son's machine). I managed Windows PC's from Windows 286 - Windows 7 for fortune 500 global corporations. I have always used the "Pro/Ultimate/Workstation" versions of the OS's along with various versions of the Server product. Always buy Pro, always use local accounts and when in doubt build your own workstations - because it is hard to build your own laptop.

I currently have Windows 10 Pro 1809 x64 running on a 2008 Toshiba Portege tablet PC - for the math impaired that is a 11 year old device - where the only Hardware changes to it was a bit more memory (6GB from 4GB) and a SSD. Heck even the pen still works, it is not the fastest thing in the world but it gets the job done. (I use it when I go on vacation to do quick and dirty edits in LR 6.14 to show off to my family via OneDrive) I have Windows 10 Pro 1809 running on my 4 PC's and my wife's PC. People who are worried about intrusion by Microsoft don't use Google, Facebook, Twitter etc. those people are giving away their privacy.
You can enable the group policy editor on 10 Home btw.... if you really want to tinker.
03-03-2019, 11:22 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
You can enable the group policy editor on 10 Home btw.... if you really want to tinker.
I know that, buy why do you have to "tinker" when you can get it native. Plus with Pro you get bitlocker which will encrypt your hard drive rather than going out and buying a third party disk encryption program. You also get customizable auditing - for those who give a hoot.

Now, back to the OP's question:
My advice to people asking what type of device to buy -
  1. Figure out your requirements. SD card, how big of a drive do you need/want, how much memory etc.
  2. Calculate how much money you have to spend. Calculate how much money you will spend on software or if the software you need is available on your target system.(if you are changing OS's)
  3. Do you want to be able to expand or change the "parts" - see question 1 (dongles do not count)
  4. Are you the type of person who is comfortable with gutting the device and trouble shooting issues?
Then:
  • Look around for the best device that fits your critieria.
  • Actually buy the biggest (disk, memory), meanest (graphics), fastest (CPU/GPU combination, networking) machine that fits your budget.
  • Throw away all the review notes, magazines, websites etc. that you used to make your decision. Because something bigger, meaner and faster will be out next quarter or next week.

One other thing to remember, wireless only devices are limited in their network throughput. For instance, I have my desktop connected to my NAS on a Gigabit NIC/Switch (it never hits the router) and I get throughput speeds over 300 Megabits per second on ethernet (which ain't that hot, but I think I have questionable cables and the switch was pretty cheap). On my Lenovo laptop (wireless only) I get transfer speeds to my NAS (going through my wireless router that supports 100 Megabit ports) that top out at around 11 Megabits per second. Most of the time I can cause the router to reboot when I transfer files, so I use the USB stick version of sneaker net. (If you don't know what sneaker net is, you never lived in the time of floppy drives before networks were a thing ) Oh - and the more devices you have on your wireless segment, the slower your overall throughput will be ------ wireless ports are hubs not switches and hubs are always slower when there is network congestion.
03-04-2019, 12:49 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
I know that, buy why do you have to "tinker" when you can get it native. Plus with Pro you get bitlocker which will encrypt your hard drive rather than going out and buying a third party disk encryption program. You also get customizable auditing - for those who give a hoot.

Now, back to the OP's question:
My advice to people asking what type of device to buy -
  1. Figure out your requirements. SD card, how big of a drive do you need/want, how much memory etc.
  2. Calculate how much money you have to spend. Calculate how much money you will spend on software or if the software you need is available on your target system.(if you are changing OS's)
  3. Do you want to be able to expand or change the "parts" - see question 1 (dongles do not count)
  4. Are you the type of person who is comfortable with gutting the device and trouble shooting issues?
Then:
  • Look around for the best device that fits your critieria.
  • Actually buy the biggest (disk, memory), meanest (graphics), fastest (CPU/GPU combination, networking) machine that fits your budget.
  • Throw away all the review notes, magazines, websites etc. that you used to make your decision. Because something bigger, meaner and faster will be out next quarter or next week.

One other thing to remember, wireless only devices are limited in their network throughput. For instance, I have my desktop connected to my NAS on a Gigabit NIC/Switch (it never hits the router) and I get throughput speeds over 300 Megabits per second on ethernet (which ain't that hot, but I think I have questionable cables and the switch was pretty cheap). On my Lenovo laptop (wireless only) I get transfer speeds to my NAS (going through my wireless router that supports 100 Megabit ports) that top out at around 11 Megabits per second. Most of the time I can cause the router to reboot when I transfer files, so I use the USB stick version of sneaker net. (If you don't know what sneaker net is, you never lived in the time of floppy drives before networks were a thing ) Oh - and the more devices you have on your wireless segment, the slower your overall throughput will be ------ wireless ports are hubs not switches and hubs are always slower when there is network congestion.
Well.. You just run a batch file that makes it available in Home. By 'tinker' I mean actually make use of group policy editor.... since you mentioned getting the Pro version of Windows versus the Home. I'm pointing out one of the key features of Pro, since you championed Pro vs Home, is available in the lesser cost Home version of Windows. But in reality those additional features aren't going to matter to the joe q public. Remember the computer is a toaster... you just plug it in and use it.
03-04-2019, 01:38 AM   #57
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If you're purchasing a computer just for image manipulation and can afford a decent Mac and like the ergonomics then Apple would indeed be a decent option.

I think they days are very much long gone where Apple could be viewed as either the only viable option or indeed the best option though. These days a decent Microsoft PC or laptop is also very capable for image processing and in fact I tend to mostly use either my office laptop (which is an Lenovo i7 with 16GB of RAM, an SSD and decent graphics capability) or my home Alienware gaming laptop which is also very capable. Both laptops get used with a nice curved screen Samsung screen that was not expensive.

I wouldn't be as keen to use a cheap PC or laptop and sadly it's often those that get compared (for performance and reliability) to Macs costing many times more.
03-04-2019, 03:45 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
I'm the OP and I would like to thank all for relating their experiences, their perspectives and the pros and cons that determined their personal selection of computer systems...PC or Apple. The input was valuable and I might add, that is what I like about the Pentax forum. Much PF discussion that goes on in this forum is well considered, thoughtful and of value... information.

My wife, bless her, figured out after many hours how to bring our PC software back to a reliable operating level after that last unsought, automatic 'update' . She's not a computer nerd, but she has a strong math/science academic background that invariably aids her in figuring out things, both logical and illogical. Sometimes I think she would of made a fine code breaker.

However, we have read the answers from all and intend to keep this thread in mind, to review again, when the next inevitable 'update' takes place and our frustration level has reached the point where enough becomes enough and it becomes decision time.

Our computer is a good Samsung laptop that seems fine. It wasn't a cheapy...so I don't think it is our computer, but then I'm no expert..

My wife also has an Apple Tablet and she is quite happy with that.

Thank you again.

Les
I think, before you go one way or the other, it would be good to consider what software you need to run on the machine. (Other than the operating system, which we have already discussed the pros and cons of.)
It's a simple fact that Apple and Windows operating systems do not treat all software equally, and, indeed, some software will not function well or at all on one or other operating system.

I think it would be good, before you buy, that you make a list of the software you'll want to have on the machine, and evaluate whether the machine will meet your requirements and the system requirements of that particular software.

For example:

This evening, I've been timing a 611 child triathlon, using Android on Samsung Galaxy tablets. Webscorer Pro works very well on Android, and will soon be released on Windows as well. It is available for iPhone and iPad but on those machines it's not good to work with because Apple, in their infinite wisdom, have decided to make it impossible for the Apple version of the app to talk to the Android version of the app. When released, the Windows version of the app will talk to the Android version, but - again thanks to Apple, won't communicate with the Apple version.

Likewise, until two years ago, AutoDesk AutoCAD Architecture was only available on PC. Prior to that, buying a Mac would have meant that the major software suite I use every day, would not have been available to me. To learn a new operating system now, after 23 years on Windows would not be a good investment of my time.

So, whichever way you go, make sure the operating system can cope with your software of choice.
03-04-2019, 06:40 AM - 1 Like   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
So, whichever way you go, make sure the operating system can cope with your software of choice.
Goof point, Mark!
03-04-2019, 07:07 AM - 2 Likes   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
So, whichever way you go, make sure the operating system can cope with your software of choice.
The biggest mistake ever, not making sure your favourite software works. I've actually (having worked six months in computer sales) met people who didn't realize a new OS means all new software. There are dual versions of much software, but my guess is there's still a lot that is only available on one platform. And, in some cases, you may have the Window's version, but there is no guarantee what will get you out of paying for the Mac version even if it is available cross platform.

But with so much software coming on the computers these days, it's much more manageable that it was.
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