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03-07-2019, 03:28 PM - 1 Like   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
Now that Apple is soldering everything to the motherboard the only repairs available is board replacement. That is their decision and it is not better if you have a Surface or some other laptop/tablet that is sealed against "end user" or "tinkerers" intrusions. The inability to change the internals of most current laptops is just a fact of life, not a "better" or "worse" strategy.
This is where these discussions all fall apart. Some Windows guy going on a rant. "I'm not biased you are. " "We are sharing information, but you are wrong."
The fact that you don't in any way appreciate what I'm saying shows how little experience you have, it doesn't make you some kind of expert.

I started with Trash 80s back in teachers college in the 60's. I practically wrote the initial computer ed. part 1, qualification for teachers 80s
25 years later I had maneuvered my school board out of PC for their media courses. Once I convinced the board to run a PC lab against a Mac lab, it took exactly 6 months of full pf scheduled full year comparison for the board to realize the Macs were saving them enough money to warrant switching all 13 labs, all the labs in every high school. In six months the Macs had saved them enough in the cost of IT support and upgrade costs to makeup for the initial higher cost and save them money.

So, I can listen to 26 years of experience, or I can listen to some guy on the internet. Please don't try and pull that "I'm smarter than you crap" on me again. if you're a good person you won't try and pull it on anyone. As I said, if you have the money buy a Mac, if you are short of cash, you'll get more value out of a PC in the short term. After 26 years of professional computer experience, that's my opinion. And who were the biggest opponents of my computer trial? The IT department. So telling me you're an IT guy is probably the last thing you want today to me. They fought it tooth and and for 5 years, and why wouldn't they? Their jobs were at stake. In our trial the PCs required 10 times more IT support than the Macs. And that's not a random opinion, that was documented before the board switched to Macs for media courses. Of course they kept the PCs for the business courses, so not all the IT guys lost their jobs. But, photography is media.

I try not to get all "up in your face" about these kinds of things, but, some people just force your hand.


Last edited by normhead; 03-07-2019 at 03:54 PM.
03-07-2019, 04:27 PM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
This is where these discussions all fall apart. Some Windows guy going on a rant. "I'm not biased you are. " "We are sharing information, but you are wrong."
The fact that you don't in any way appreciate what I'm saying shows how little experience you have, it doesn't make you some kind of expert.

I started with Trash 80s back in teachers college in the 60's. I practically wrote the initial computer ed. part 1, qualification for teachers 80s
25 years later I had maneuvered my school board out of PC for their media courses. Once I convinced the board to run a PC lab against a Mac lab, it took exactly 6 months of full pf scheduled full year comparison for the board to realize the Macs were saving them enough money to warrant switching all 13 labs, all the labs in every high school. In six months the Macs had saved them enough in the cost of IT support and upgrade costs to makeup for the initial higher cost and save them money.

So, I can listen to 26 years of experience, or I can listen to some guy on the internet. Please don't try and pull that "I'm smarter than you crap" on me again. if you're a good person you won't try and pull it on anyone. As I said, if you have the money buy a Mac, if you are short of cash, you'll get more value out of a PC in the short term. After 26 years of professional computer experience, that's my opinion. And who were the biggest opponents of my computer trial? The IT department. So telling me you're an IT guy is probably the last thing you want today to me. They fought it tooth and and for 5 years, and why wouldn't they? Their jobs were at stake. In our trial the PCs required 10 times more IT support than the Macs. And that's not a random opinion, that was documented before the board switched to Macs for media courses. Of course they kept the PCs for the business courses, so not all the IT guys lost their jobs. But, photography is media.

I try not to get all "up in your face" about these kinds of things, but, some people just force your hand.
I'm not smarter than anyone. I don't trust MS, and although I am a retired technology guy, I got my daughter to build and configure a Linux computer for me {once I found appropriate Linux software for everything I want to do}. She and her husband are coming back this weekend to make some adjustments. Nothing is hidden or a secret in "Open Software".
03-07-2019, 05:29 PM - 1 Like   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
This is where these discussions all fall apart. Some Windows guy going on a rant. "I'm not biased you are. " "We are sharing information, but you are wrong."
The fact that you don't in any way appreciate what I'm saying shows how little experience you have, it doesn't make you some kind of expert.

I started with Trash 80s back in teachers college in the 60's. I practically wrote the initial computer ed. part 1, qualification for teachers 80s
25 years later I had maneuvered my school board out of PC for their media courses. Once I convinced the board to run a PC lab against a Mac lab, it took exactly 6 months of full pf scheduled full year comparison for the board to realize the Macs were saving them enough money to warrant switching all 13 labs, all the labs in every high school. In six months the Macs had saved them enough in the cost of IT support and upgrade costs to makeup for the initial higher cost and save them money.

So, I can listen to 26 years of experience, or I can listen to some guy on the internet. Please don't try and pull that "I'm smarter than you crap" on me again. if you're a good person you won't try and pull it on anyone. As I said, if you have the money buy a Mac, if you are short of cash, you'll get more value out of a PC in the short term. After 26 years of professional computer experience, that's my opinion. And who were the biggest opponents of my computer trial? The IT department. So telling me you're an IT guy is probably the last thing you want today to me. They fought it tooth and and for 5 years, and why wouldn't they? Their jobs were at stake. In our trial the PCs required 10 times more IT support than the Macs. And that's not a random opinion, that was documented before the board switched to Macs for media courses. Of course they kept the PCs for the business courses, so not all the IT guys lost their jobs. But, photography is media.

I try not to get all "up in your face" about these kinds of things, but, some people just force your hand.
The problem with your reasoning is while we are (as you so rudely put it) "some guy(s) on the internet", YOU, normhead, are to us also just some guy on the internet. You have the same level of credit to us as we do to you.


What you've done is put your personal experience in front and then are calling others out for their supposed bias when, in doing so you are showing your own personal bias.

Besides, what worked well decades ago in the educational sector speaks to nothing of what works for an end user today. Back in ye olden tymes when you worked, Apple PCs were their own thing. They designed the hardware and the software. Numerous school systems and universities used Apples as a result. They were the better product for the application.


Today Apple just design the software and use pseudo-COTS products like Intel x86 processors and AMD GPUs. Sure, the drivers are specific for a Mac. However, there is no indication the Windows counterparts are any less stable or slower, unless you can prove otherwise. Again, so long as you chose comparable parts.

So I stand by my claim that there is no inherent difference in performance or in reliability with a Mac or using a Windows PC today. This is the moderate, middle road view. Buy the one you're comfortable with and enjoy. It isn't really an issue to get so defensive over.
03-07-2019, 06:29 PM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
This is where these discussions all fall apart. Some Windows guy going on a rant. "I'm not biased you are. " "We are sharing information, but you are wrong."
The fact that you don't in any way appreciate what I'm saying shows how little experience you have, it doesn't make you some kind of expert.

I started with Trash 80s back in teachers college in the 60's. I practically wrote the initial computer ed. part 1, qualification for teachers 80s
25 years later I had maneuvered my school board out of PC for their media courses. Once I convinced the board to run a PC lab against a Mac lab, it took exactly 6 months of full pf scheduled full year comparison for the board to realize the Macs were saving them enough money to warrant switching all 13 labs, all the labs in every high school. In six months the Macs had saved them enough in the cost of IT support and upgrade costs to makeup for the initial higher cost and save them money.

So, I can listen to 26 years of experience, or I can listen to some guy on the internet. Please don't try and pull that "I'm smarter than you crap" on me again. if you're a good person you won't try and pull it on anyone. As I said, if you have the money buy a Mac, if you are short of cash, you'll get more value out of a PC in the short term. After 26 years of professional computer experience, that's my opinion. And who were the biggest opponents of my computer trial? The IT department. So telling me you're an IT guy is probably the last thing you want today to me. They fought it tooth and and for 5 years, and why wouldn't they? Their jobs were at stake. In our trial the PCs required 10 times more IT support than the Macs. And that's not a random opinion, that was documented before the board switched to Macs for media courses. Of course they kept the PCs for the business courses, so not all the IT guys lost their jobs. But, photography is media.

I try not to get all "up in your face" about these kinds of things, but, some people just force your hand.
Chill dude.

After taking Comp Sci courses in college, I was one of the first customers of the venerable TRS-80 model I in 1977 (you might want to edit your statement to reflect that it was released in 1977) which sits in its box out in my garage to this day - I am a tech hoarder ya know. I returned to college and earned a Bachelor's in Comp Sci - <satire on> SO THERE <satire off>

As part of my professional computer life I supported a few thousand Windows Desktops and servers located across the US (i.e. coast to coast) in a Large Global environment. So, yeah I do have the experience to make the comments I have. And in my post did you miss the "That is their decision and it is not better if you have a Surface or some other laptop/tablet that is sealed against "end user" or "tinkerers" intrusions." part? Surface is a trademark of Microsoft and that series of machines has the same anti-tinker concepts going on - i.e. can't upgrade memory/disk/add ports/upgrade graphics controllers etc. etc. Although it is just really hard to upgrade a graphics controller on a laptop no matter who makes it.

I disagree that PC's are more expensive to manage than Mac's, but since the global corporations I worked for basically banned Apple products from the environments I supported and I do not own any Apple hardware products (I have Quick Time on my desktop to watch old videos from my photo workshops) means - I don't really care. If you take that as an offensive argument - then OK - but then I admit I am biased, but I don't say Apple is wrong/bad or is out to rule the world. I have even had to give up my Windows Phone because the Apps I used are no longer supported - I bought a unlocked Android phone. So I am really unhappy with Microsoft for many of its policies and practices.

So sit back and chill out, your analogies are just like mine - analogies based on personal/professional experience. I am admitting outright that I am biased and I never said I am smarter than you, I stated that my experience is different but I have also gone to some length to back my statements up with independent information supporting what I say.

So don't get all huffy, just chill and lay your verifiable cards on the table for all of us to see.

Again, for the OP: Get what you can afford based on your needs, not what "some guy on the internet" tells you that you need. Do a little work on cost/availability/support and software availability. Then go get it.


Last edited by PDL; 03-07-2019 at 06:46 PM.
03-07-2019, 06:54 PM   #110
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QuoteQuote:
As part of my professional computer life I supported a few thousand Windows Desktops and servers located across the US
So stop talking about what you don't know about. That will end the discussion.

QuoteQuote:
I disagree that PC's are more expensive to manage than Mac's, but since the global corporations I worked for basically banned Apple products from the environments I supported and I do not own any Apple hardware products
So you admit you're speaking form a position ignorance, thanks for that, nuf said.

See, I fought this battle years ago against my own IT department and won. You sound just like our IT guys did, before they were completely discredited, not by company policy, but in side by side lab comparisons.

To convince me otherwise you're going to have to go back in a time machine and rewrite some history.
03-07-2019, 07:20 PM - 1 Like   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So stop talking about what you don't know about. That will end the discussion.



So you admit you're speaking form a position ignorance, thanks for that, nuf said.

See, I fought this battle years ago against my own IT department and won. You sound just like our IT guys did, before they were completely discredited, not by company policy, but in side by side lab comparisons.

To convince me otherwise you're going to have to go back in a time machine and rewrite some history.
I'm not really sure the end point of your disagreements. Is it to say Apple computers are 'better' ?

You haven't really done much but get hot around the collar over someone suggesting Windows PCs are not inferior to their Apple counterparts today. And you've done that with aged anecdotes formed from working in a computing environment that is not relevant to the OP's decision. That is unless he is going decades back in time to operate a computer in an lab in some school.

So I'm not sure how that is supposed to convince anyone either.
03-07-2019, 07:27 PM - 9 Likes   #112
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With all this bickering going on, I'm not sure this thread is going anywhere useful.

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