[normhead]

Warning, this is a long read.

Why Facts Don?t Change Our Minds | The New Yorker

It's not just us, it's everyone.
The fact is "Pentax AF is bad" is never going to be changed, because of confirmation bias, and because people never have to explain why they think that. Once an opinion is formed, it is really hard to get rid of.

The bloggers , camera store sales people etc. have really done a number on Pentax, and logic, even good hard science isn't going to change their minds. A case in point being, after scientific evidence was presented clearly showing Pentax AF actually was better in some ways than anyone else's, not one forum member I can remember even changed their attitude. Many read the article, then continued to spout the same nonsense they spouted before reading the article. We like to believe we change our minds to align with the facts, but, bottom line, we don't.

And to a certain extent it explains Pentax's unwillingness to get back into marketing. Once folks have made up their minds they aren't going to change them, regardless of the facts or science. Pentax's market is people who never bought the anti-Pentax hype. Given the current climate, it's hard to even know who those people might be. People claim Pentax needs to put more effort into convincing people to buy Pentax. Read the article, you'll discover that ship has already sailed. Once an attitude has been formed most people are incapable of changing to align with the facts.

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Last edited by normhead; 04-16-2019 at 06:59 AM.

[CarlJF]

Once an attitude has been formed most people are incapable of changing to align with the facts.

It's even worse than that, instead of this most people will rather align or distort the facts to fit their opinions.

[normhead]

It's even worse than that, instead of this most people will rather align or distort the facts to fit their opinions.

It sure doesn't make us sound very smart.

[pschlute]

It's even worse than that, instead of this most people will rather align or distort the facts to fit their opinions

Unfortunately this is so true today. Not just on photography forums but across all social media on all subjects especially politics.

Twenty years ago the often heard complaint was that "people are not interested in politics". Social media appears to have changed that, but instead of reasoned debate we now have the equivalent of the "drunk bloke in the pub" being heard as much as seasoned political commentators !

[luftfluss]

Most "facts" presented in a forum are cherry-picked (that is, supporting only the author's viewpoint), distorted, or presented so zealously that my Spidey senses tingle.

[bkpix]

Interesting article, Norm. and probably spot on about forum discussions.

One aspect it doesn't mention is that the economic architecture of the web -- the fact that companies can get rich off of high hit rates -- further encourages argument and division. This doesn't really lead to intelligent discourse.

[jacamar]

I suppose once an impression like the one about Pentax AF is out and about it can become self-confirming. Like last week when I was trying to get shots of tiny Kinglets that wouldn't stay in one place for more than half a second at a time. Once a bit of frustration sets in, it's hard not to think "maybe that guy's Nikon would do a better job", when in fact it would be hard for any camera to get those shots.

Regarding marketing, it's interesting to note that the Ricoh GR III is a "featured product" on the front page of the (Toronto) Downtown Camera website. Doesn't Ricoh have to pay to get that kind of placement? Maybe there's some marketing going on that could spread to the next new Pentax camera.

[ThorSanchez]

A case in point being, after scientific evidence was presented clearly showing Pentax AF actually was better in some ways than anyone else's, not one forum member I can remember even changed their attitude. Many read the article, then continued to spout the same nonsense they spouted before reading the article. We like to believe we change our minds to align with the facts, but, bottom line, we don't.

Wasn't that a single set of tests run a number of years ago? An unbiased person should use that as a one data point among many in forming conclusions. It isn't reasonable to broadly change your opinion based on one contra-indicative study. That scientific evidence should be the starting point for more studies that provide a comprehensive comparison across systems to give us more statistically significant data.

---------- Post added 04-16-19 at 10:30 AM ----------

It's even worse than that, instead of this most people will rather align or distort the facts to fit their opinions.

Most people use facts like a drunk uses a lamppost - for support, not illumination.

[normhead]

Most people use facts like a drunk uses a lamppost - for support, not illumination.

Great line...

Wasn't that a single set of tests run a number of years ago? An unbiased person should use that as a one data point among many in forming conclusions. It isn't reasonable to broadly change your opinion based on one contra-indicative study. That scientific evidence should be the starting point for more studies that provide a comprehensive comparison across systems to give us more statistically significant data.

The sad thing is, at the moment, that's all we have. The thing is, the heavy hitters know they make their profits by distorting reality in their favour and have the money and campaigns to continue that way. Small companies like Pentax that could benefit from breaking up th "reality distortion field" don't have the money to do so. And what credible scientist is going to apply for funding to study various camera systems. I think the world has more pressing problems.

For that one actual test, my first thought was "who paid for this?" Given the choice of camera bodies, the study was clearly under funded, it looks like two incredible guys probably in their mom's basement trying to apply science to camera performance. You can say it's not enough, but you can also say, it's incredible it was even done.

And given the apparent fact that no one will change their mind anyway, what would be the point?

None the less, my opinion has always been a small un-repeated scientific study with no follow up research, is still better than the minefield of people's opinions.

[Madaboutpix]

Warning, this is a long read. Why Facts Don?t Change Our Minds | The New Yorker

Long, maybe, but definitely rewarding and illuminating, Norman. Kinda depressing too. The strength of that human tendency to reiterate complete BS -- and I'm not going to pretend I'm immune to this -- is really shocking. Even if you have heard of confirmation bias before.

[reh321]

It sure doesn't make us sound very smart.

But maybe Ricoh is smart. In recent years they don't seem to be fighting the "poor AF" label; instead, they seem to be delivering the best AF they reasonably can, but focusing their talk on other aspects, such as WR, pixel shift, and better higher ISO performance.

[photoptimist]

Yes, confirmation bias is a deeply ingrained in human cognition. (There are reasons that this is actually a good in a world where "facts" aren't always right and the consequences of changing one's mind maybe unpredictable.)

But the title of this thread is wrong: forum discussions actually do change people's minds in two ways. The vast majority of people in this world have no opinion about Pentax at all and this forum helps change their minds from blank slates to Pentax believers. Second, even on issues such as AF, I can't help but believe that some people have been favorably influenced because some AF-related threads have shared advice on how to configure Pentax AF for a higher keeper rate.

(Of course, maybe I'm operating under a confirmation bias that PF does some good for Pentax. )

[normhead]

The value of the Pentax forum is it's ability to reach out to people who are having problems, but haven't made up their minds and are still open to being influenced. Many come here looking for answers, not to state their opinions. The ones that give us the most trouble are those who state an opinion as a prelude to telling us what problem they are having, a very round about way of asking for help. We don't know if they've made up their minds and just want to argue, or if they are honestly looking for help.

PF is a tremendous resource, because many people who have had to figure things out on their own over days weeks and months, can pass on that knowledge in single post. It's an amazing resource. Pentax is small so, a good percentage of the people in the world who know much about Pentax are accessible here. Regardless of what you want to shoot, someone here has done it. I'm willing to bet for other brands, you wouldn't find the level of expertise you find here on a public forum. Just based on some of the amazing posts, my guess is there is a higher percentage of technically knowledgeable people here than most camera forums.

Honestly, framed the right way, I've never had a question someone couldn't answer.

[Larrymc]

Warning, this is a long read.

Why Facts Don?t Change Our Minds | The New Yorker

It's not just us, it's everyone.
The fact is "Pentax AF is bad" is never going to be changed, because of confirmation bias, and because people never have to explain why they think that. Once an opinion is formed, it is really hard to get rid of.

The bloggers , camera store sales people etc. have really done a number on Pentax, and logic, even good hard science isn't going to change their minds. A case in point being, after scientific evidence was presented clearly showing Pentax AF actually was better in some ways than anyone else's, not one forum member I can remember even changed their attitude. Many read the article, then continued to spout the same nonsense they spouted before reading the article. We like to believe we change our minds to align with the facts, but, bottom line, we don't.

And to a certain extent it explains Pentax's unwillingness to get back into marketing. Once folks have made up their minds they aren't going to change them, regardless of the facts or science. Pentax's market is people who never bought the anti-Pentax hype. Given the current climate, it's hard to even know who those people might be. People claim Pentax needs to put more effort into convincing people to buy Pentax. Read the article, you'll discover that ship has already sailed. Once an attitude has been formed most people are incapable of changing to align with the facts.

The read was informative........until it veered into the purpose of the article, politics. Yep, the ship has indeed sailed.

[Perfessor5646]

I read that New Yorker article on another website I spend time on. Boardgamegeek.com has a sub forum called Religion, Sex and Politics for non-game related and controversial content. RSP for short. It used to be an unmoderated sub forum and discussions used to get pretty rude. They cracked down and the worst offenders were banned or self-exiled. I’m vaguely semi-aware that the Pentax Forum might used to have had a sub forum of a similar nature.

I find the similarities between PF and BGG, websites dedicated to niche hobbies or products, to be comparable in terms of the high level of civility and the literacy of its users.