keep on truckin'

FHPhotographer · 10-15-2008, 04:38 PM

Fellow Forum folk...

I've been looking at the responses to the earlier subject distance poll redux and I am just flummoxed. I've gathered and analyzed data like this as part of my work in public relations and teaching for nearly 30 years. But I have never, in my experience in both teaching and practicing public relations/advertising/ marketing, come across an larger cohort within a universe of potential responders with a more pronounced fear of selection bias coupled with so much intractable cognitive dissonance. Many of you not only don't want new information, you don't want anybody else to have it, and you don't want other people to participate in gathering that information.

The poll may end up without any substantial data, and if so, we all at least know that; that kind of response will simply prove the hypothesis invalid or at least insupportable. I don't want to be a pedant, but that's how (even simple) research works --you make an assumption about how the world is, pose that assumption as a hypothetical, gather data, test your assumption(s) and either support or reject the hypothesis. Folks, it ain't witchcraft, and it sure wasn't an attack on your most closely held photography beliefs.

It's possible too many of you have spent way too much time defending Pentax from the slings and arrows of Nikon, Canon, Sony and others and so have developed a perverse siege mentality … it's y'all against the world, and the world is defined by anybody who doesn’t agree with you. This would be silly if not so sad, because I think I hear a steady drumbeat of anti-intellectualism in the background and that is very troubling.

I, for one, plan to just keep on truckin' photographically… but I'm going to do it somewhere else. Thanks, it's been a slice,

Brian (formerly FHPhotographer)

J.Scott · 10-15-2008, 05:06 PM

Ok - bye.

**Lowell Goudge** · 10-15-2008, 05:55 PM

I think the issue is not to be confused with your approach. You elected to form a hypothesis, post a question (or two) take a poll to prove it.

What we are dealing with here are a lot of very minute differences in image quality from one lens to another, with too many variables to get a reliable poll with the options you posted. You forgot, for example the issue of F Stop and where it fits in the equation of image quality.

In all honesty you are attempting to redefine image quality lens tests that have been adapted as part of the standard way to evaluate optics. I don't think an informal poll will simply give you meaningful data.

None of use here, can other than subjectively give an honest apprasial of image quality between different images taken with the same lens at different distances. We don't have optical benches, devices for measuring resolution etc.

There are tests we can do and ones we can't and what you have asked for are ones we can't do.

I raise the same point when people use those stupid focus charts. they take a shot at an odd angle (not square on) and then complain one side is out of focus, or complain about front focus when the in focus is 1/3 from the front and 2/3 from the back of the range of focus, even thoufh physics suggests that is where it should be.

This is not to discourage testing, as we need to do some tests to baseline how our equipment works, but there is a limit, and I think you have passed it.

pingflood · 10-15-2008, 06:19 PM

Having spent over a decade on Internet forums and USENET, I daresay that anybody who makes a point of telling people they're leaving actually aren't.

Brian/FHphotographer: I don't think people were against you in any way, it's just that most (myself included) could not see the logic behind what you were looking for. No big deal; if you are convinced that your reasoning makes sense just accept that most others aren't coming to the same conclusion and carry on.

jsherman999 · 10-15-2008, 06:21 PM

.

Your poll was so incredibly amateurish that I find it hard to believe that you've actually ever conducted any statistical research, much less spent 30 years doing it professionally.

Your lack of acceptable methodology would have been mitigated by a link back to an originating thread that might have explained your intent, but you failed to do even that, and then you followed it up with a clenched authoritarianism broken only by bursts of reactionary anger, insults, and threats. And this has been a pattern with you.

You need to realize that this is a camera forum, an attempt at community, and not a challenge to your sense of righteousness.

In other words - lighten up. (Again.)

.

nulla · 10-16-2008, 01:03 AM

Quote:

In other words - lighten up. (Again.)

I agree.. relax

Enjoy your camera lenses and this great forum, take some photos... its fun

Neil

J.Scott · 10-16-2008, 08:35 AM

Let me get this straight - when your poll didn't generate the results you wanted it means that those polled were at fault. When it garnered more questions about the reason for or logic surrounding the poll we are labeled as being affected by "...intractable cognitive dissonance." Nah, I don't think so.

Well, you're gone now, so who cares - right?

Bye!

k100d · 10-16-2008, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by FHPhotographer

It's possible too many of you have spent way too much time defending Pentax from the slings and arrows of Nikon, Canon, Sony and others and so have developed a perverse siege mentality … it's y'all against the world, and the world is defined by anybody who doesn’t agree with you. This would be silly if not so sad, because I think I hear a steady drumbeat of anti-intellectualism in the background and that is very troubling.

where did this come from?
you haven't been on the forum long enough. we are all aware of the shortcomings of Pentax and there are incessant threads about it in the News and Rumours forums. there have been tonnes of pentax users who have left because they don't deliver what they need and we all realize this. in fact we even encourage people to leave when their gear doesn't work for them.

if you're upset at the responses to your poll, don't be. if you're willing to experiment, try putting up similar polls on other Camera forums and see what the responses are. i'm not sure you'd get anything more than what you have right now. maybe you'd get my macro is good for macro and my portrait is good for portrait. if you want to see some cool informal comments about lenses, this is the place to go http://stans-photography.info/ but it hasn't been updated since 2001

Damn Brit · 10-16-2008, 01:03 PM

You will find everything you need here Brian.
RiceHigh's Pentax Blog

Ed in GA · 10-16-2008, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Damn Brit

You will find everything you need here Brian.
RiceHigh's Pentax Blog

Priceless!

Ed in GA · 10-16-2008, 01:36 PM

If you're not getting the answers you want, one of two things is happening....

1. You're asking the wrong questions.

2. You're asking the right questions but not getting the answers you wanted!

Arpe · 10-16-2008, 05:10 PM

Brian, I saw your poll but didn't participate in that or the discussion. Basically I didn't understand the poll, and still don't. And of course the subsequent "discussion" got a bit too childish, so I didn't participate in that either. Also, there's too many long words in the top post!

Adam · 10-17-2008, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by FHPhotographer

Fellow Forum folk...

I've been looking at the responses to the earlier subject distance poll redux and I am just flummoxed. I've gathered and analyzed data like this as part of my work in public relations and teaching for nearly 30 years. But I have never, in my experience in both teaching and practicing public relations/advertising/ marketing, come across an larger cohort within a universe of potential responders with a more pronounced fear of selection bias coupled with so much intractable cognitive dissonance. Many of you not only don't want new information, you don't want anybody else to have it, and you don't want other people to participate in gathering that information.

The poll may end up without any substantial data, and if so, we all at least know that; that kind of response will simply prove the hypothesis invalid or at least insupportable. I don't want to be a pedant, but that's how (even simple) research works --you make an assumption about how the world is, pose that assumption as a hypothetical, gather data, test your assumption(s) and either support or reject the hypothesis. Folks, it ain't witchcraft, and it sure wasn't an attack on your most closely held photography beliefs.

It's possible too many of you have spent way too much time defending Pentax from the slings and arrows of Nikon, Canon, Sony and others and so have developed a perverse siege mentality … it's y'all against the world, and the world is defined by anybody who doesn’t agree with you. This would be silly if not so sad, because I think I hear a steady drumbeat of anti-intellectualism in the background and that is very troubling.

I, for one, plan to just keep on truckin' photographically… but I'm going to do it somewhere else. Thanks, it's been a slice,

Brian (formerly FHPhotographer)

Maybe I should start a Canonforums, and a Nikonforums too

But IMO, Sony should really stick to electronics and not bother with competing with the more renowned camera brands.

Damn Brit · 10-17-2008, 02:09 PM

His post on DPR a couple of days ago; Note he has a different name - BHPhotog.

D60 or 90 with 16-85?: Nikon D90 - D40 Forum: Digital Photography Review

Clicker · 10-17-2008, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Damn Brit

His post on DPR a couple of days ago; Note he has a different name - BHPhotog.

D60 or 90 with 16-85?: Nikon D90 - D40 Forum: Digital Photography Review

I pm'd Adam to kill my account (at least i thought i did heh); i had plans D3

then reality kicked in (K20D, DA*200/2.8), you guys are stuck with me now

So i missed that poll (i usually have my opinions, who doesn't) but i was busy going thru my reality check, sorry.

10-15-2008, 04:38 PM	#1
FHPhotographer Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Fountain Hills, AZ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,297	keep on truckin' Fellow Forum folk... I've been looking at the responses to the earlier subject distance poll redux and I am just flummoxed. I've gathered and analyzed data like this as part of my work in public relations and teaching for nearly 30 years. But I have never, in my experience in both teaching and practicing public relations/advertising/ marketing, come across an larger cohort within a universe of potential responders with a more pronounced fear of selection bias coupled with so much intractable cognitive dissonance. Many of you not only don't want new information, you don't want anybody else to have it, and you don't want other people to participate in gathering that information. The poll may end up without any substantial data, and if so, we all at least know that; that kind of response will simply prove the hypothesis invalid or at least insupportable. I don't want to be a pedant, but that's how (even simple) research works --you make an assumption about how the world is, pose that assumption as a hypothetical, gather data, test your assumption(s) and either support or reject the hypothesis. Folks, it ain't witchcraft, and it sure wasn't an attack on your most closely held photography beliefs. It's possible too many of you have spent way too much time defending Pentax from the slings and arrows of Nikon, Canon, Sony and others and so have developed a perverse siege mentality … it's y'all against the world, and the world is defined by anybody who doesn’t agree with you. This would be silly if not so sad, because I think I hear a steady drumbeat of anti-intellectualism in the background and that is very troubling. I, for one, plan to just keep on truckin' photographically… but I'm going to do it somewhere else. Thanks, it's been a slice, Brian (formerly FHPhotographer)

10-15-2008, 06:21 PM	#5
jsherman999 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,237	. Your poll was so incredibly amateurish that I find it hard to believe that you've actually ever conducted any statistical research, much less spent 30 years doing it professionally. Your lack of acceptable methodology would have been mitigated by a link back to an originating thread that might have explained your intent, but you failed to do even that, and then you followed it up with a clenched authoritarianism broken only by bursts of reactionary anger, insults, and threats. And this has been a pattern with you. You need to realize that this is a camera forum, an attempt at community, and not a challenge to your sense of righteousness. In other words - lighten up. (Again.) . Last edited by jsherman999; 10-15-2008 at 09:54 PM.

10-17-2008, 09:50 AM	#13
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,594	Originally posted by FHPhotographer Fellow Forum folk... I've been looking at the responses to the earlier subject distance poll redux and I am just flummoxed. I've gathered and analyzed data like this as part of my work in public relations and teaching for nearly 30 years. But I have never, in my experience in both teaching and practicing public relations/advertising/ marketing, come across an larger cohort within a universe of potential responders with a more pronounced fear of selection bias coupled with so much intractable cognitive dissonance. Many of you not only don't want new information, you don't want anybody else to have it, and you don't want other people to participate in gathering that information. The poll may end up without any substantial data, and if so, we all at least know that; that kind of response will simply prove the hypothesis invalid or at least insupportable. I don't want to be a pedant, but that's how (even simple) research works --you make an assumption about how the world is, pose that assumption as a hypothetical, gather data, test your assumption(s) and either support or reject the hypothesis. Folks, it ain't witchcraft, and it sure wasn't an attack on your most closely held photography beliefs. It's possible too many of you have spent way too much time defending Pentax from the slings and arrows of Nikon, Canon, Sony and others and so have developed a perverse siege mentality … it's y'all against the world, and the world is defined by anybody who doesn’t agree with you. This would be silly if not so sad, because I think I hear a steady drumbeat of anti-intellectualism in the background and that is very troubling. I, for one, plan to just keep on truckin' photographically… but I'm going to do it somewhere else. Thanks, it's been a slice, Brian (formerly FHPhotographer) Maybe I should start a Canonforums, and a Nikonforums too But IMO, Sony should really stick to electronics and not bother with competing with the more renowned camera brands. Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

10-17-2008, 02:09 PM	#14
Damn Brit Guest	He really is jumping ship. His post on DPR a couple of days ago; Note he has a different name - BHPhotog. D60 or 90 with 16-85?: Nikon D90 - D40 Forum: Digital Photography Review

10-15-2008, 05:06 PM	#2
J.Scott Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,675	Ok - bye.

10-15-2008, 05:55 PM	#3
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,886	I think the issue is not to be confused with your approach. You elected to form a hypothesis, post a question (or two) take a poll to prove it. What we are dealing with here are a lot of very minute differences in image quality from one lens to another, with too many variables to get a reliable poll with the options you posted. You forgot, for example the issue of F Stop and where it fits in the equation of image quality. In all honesty you are attempting to redefine image quality lens tests that have been adapted as part of the standard way to evaluate optics. I don't think an informal poll will simply give you meaningful data. None of use here, can other than subjectively give an honest apprasial of image quality between different images taken with the same lens at different distances. We don't have optical benches, devices for measuring resolution etc. There are tests we can do and ones we can't and what you have asked for are ones we can't do. I raise the same point when people use those stupid focus charts. they take a shot at an odd angle (not square on) and then complain one side is out of focus, or complain about front focus when the in focus is 1/3 from the front and 2/3 from the back of the range of focus, even thoufh physics suggests that is where it should be. This is not to discourage testing, as we need to do some tests to baseline how our equipment works, but there is a limit, and I think you have passed it.

10-15-2008, 06:19 PM	#4
pingflood Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Borås, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,169	Having spent over a decade on Internet forums and USENET, I daresay that anybody who makes a point of telling people they're leaving actually aren't. Brian/FHphotographer: I don't think people were against you in any way, it's just that most (myself included) could not see the logic behind what you were looking for. No big deal; if you are convinced that your reasoning makes sense just accept that most others aren't coming to the same conclusion and carry on.

10-16-2008, 01:03 AM	#6
nulla Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 1,560	Quote: In other words - lighten up. (Again.) I agree.. relax Enjoy your camera lenses and this great forum, take some photos... its fun Neil

10-16-2008, 08:35 AM	#7
J.Scott Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,675	Let me get this straight - when your poll didn't generate the results you wanted it means that those polled were at fault. When it garnered more questions about the reason for or logic surrounding the poll we are labeled as being affected by "...intractable cognitive dissonance." Nah, I don't think so. Well, you're gone now, so who cares - right? Bye!

10-16-2008, 09:09 AM	#8
k100d Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Toronto Posts: 3,911	Originally posted by FHPhotographer It's possible too many of you have spent way too much time defending Pentax from the slings and arrows of Nikon, Canon, Sony and others and so have developed a perverse siege mentality … it's y'all against the world, and the world is defined by anybody who doesn’t agree with you. This would be silly if not so sad, because I think I hear a steady drumbeat of anti-intellectualism in the background and that is very troubling. where did this come from? you haven't been on the forum long enough. we are all aware of the shortcomings of Pentax and there are incessant threads about it in the News and Rumours forums. there have been tonnes of pentax users who have left because they don't deliver what they need and we all realize this. in fact we even encourage people to leave when their gear doesn't work for them. if you're upset at the responses to your poll, don't be. if you're willing to experiment, try putting up similar polls on other Camera forums and see what the responses are. i'm not sure you'd get anything more than what you have right now. maybe you'd get my macro is good for macro and my portrait is good for portrait. if you want to see some cool informal comments about lenses, this is the place to go http://stans-photography.info/ but it hasn't been updated since 2001

10-16-2008, 01:03 PM	#9
Damn Brit Guest	You will find everything you need here Brian. RiceHigh's Pentax Blog

10-16-2008, 01:34 PM	#10
Ed in GA Guest	Originally posted by Damn Brit You will find everything you need here Brian. RiceHigh's Pentax Blog Priceless!

10-16-2008, 01:36 PM	#11
Ed in GA Guest	If you're not getting the answers you want, one of two things is happening.... 1. You're asking the wrong questions. 2. You're asking the right questions but not getting the answers you wanted!

10-16-2008, 05:10 PM	#12
Arpe Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,452	Brian, I saw your poll but didn't participate in that or the discussion. Basically I didn't understand the poll, and still don't. And of course the subsequent "discussion" got a bit too childish, so I didn't participate in that either. Also, there's too many long words in the top post!

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10-17-2008, 03:00 PM	#15
Clicker Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,241	Originally posted by Damn Brit His post on DPR a couple of days ago; Note he has a different name - BHPhotog. D60 or 90 with 16-85?: Nikon D90 - D40 Forum: Digital Photography Review I pm'd Adam to kill my account (at least i thought i did heh); i had plans D3 then reality kicked in (K20D, DA*200/2.8), you guys are stuck with me now So i missed that poll (i usually have my opinions, who doesn't) but i was busy going thru my reality check, sorry.