Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
10-17-2008, 06:04 AM   #1
Veteran Member
falconeye's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Munich, Alps, Germany
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,871
Black Silicon

ogl mentioned "black silicon" in
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/367269-post91.html.

So, I looked it up. There is a recent article about it (Oct 15) in Tom's hardware:
Black Silicon CMOS Sensors 100 Times More Sensitive - Tom's Hardware

And more about it is found here:
http://www.sionyx.com/mslns/Black_Silicon_Imaging_Technology.pdf

This is an interesting technology and commonly referred to as providing 100x improved sensitivity. I.e., making a 1µm pixel site behave as a conventional 10µm pixel would. Or making a P&S outperform a digital medium format in low light!

Being a physicist, let me provide some additional information making the above claim a false one.

What they (Sionyx Corp.) mean by 100x is a 10000% quantum efficiency. I.e., that one photon, on average, creates 100 electrons.

While this will dramatically reduce read-out noise, it basically only provides an amplification effect (like avalanche diodes) and will not reduce the Shot noise (Shot noise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Shot noise is the main source of noise in low light.

What would reduce Shot noise though, is an increase of the fraction of photons which are detected at all, a number traditionally called quantum efficiency and which is a number defined to be smaller than 100%. Sionyx Corp. doesn't quote this figure.

In lack of any additional information and in view of the fact that quantum efficiency is pretty good already (in some devices) and read-out noise can be minimized using more conventional technologies, I am led to conclude the following:

Black Silicon is interesting but no break-thru technology.

The most break-thru like technology in the field would be one which detects individual photons and their energy (read color). It would minimize the Shot noise to what is feasible. The improvement would be significant but much smaller than 100x.


Last edited by falconeye; 10-18-2008 at 06:00 PM. Reason: Silicon, not silicone ;)
10-17-2008, 06:49 AM   #2
Veteran Member
ftpaddict's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Yurp
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,666
After significant amounts of head-hurting caused by your physics, I'd have to agree. You did your homework better than 99.99% of people out there.
10-17-2008, 08:05 AM   #3
Veteran Member
Gooshin's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Toronto, the one in Canada.
Posts: 5,610
QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
While this will dramatically reduce read-out noise, it basically only provides an amplification effect (like avalanche diodes) and will not reduce the Shot noise (Shot noise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Shot noise is the main source of noise in low light.
so the black silicone slab if used for digital image caputre, will require less energy to operate and provide a cleaner signal?

wont this still improve high ISO performance even if its not '100%', any improvement is beneficial is it not?


also, another question (pardon if it has been raised/answered before), but how expensive is it (will be) to produce, and how will the QC on it be?
From what i understand, one of the main issues with FF/MF digital sensors being so expensive is simply the physical aspect of making one, with the amount of defective units rising as the size is increased.
10-18-2008, 04:25 AM   #4
Veteran Member
falconeye's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Munich, Alps, Germany
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,871
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
so the black silicone slab if used for digital image caputre, will require less energy to operate and provide a cleaner signal?

wont this still improve high ISO performance even if its not '100%', any improvement is beneficial is it not?
This is correct, probably... . As I said, no break-thru. But interesting, still.

I did not evaluate all aspects of this technology (or any of those other "future" technologies, like "Light-field cameras"). Using my scientific background, I only use to digg deeper when any new hype technology comes across.

When a real break-thru happens, I would like to know and not have it hidden by all those hyped fakes. I just digg as deep as necessary to be able to separate one from the other.

10-18-2008, 09:14 AM   #5
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2007
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,237
Silicone?

.


I guess the real question burning a hole in my mind is: Is this going to 'feel' more natural?


Oh - black silicon!



10-18-2008, 06:02 PM   #6
Veteran Member
falconeye's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Munich, Alps, Germany
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,871
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Silicone
Thanks for spotting my mistake. What a difference an 'e' can make
10-18-2008, 06:11 PM   #7
Veteran Member
deejjjaaaa's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: steel city / rust belt
Posts: 2,043
QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
This is correct, probably... . As I said, no break-thru.
I have read here

The Online Photographer: Black Silicon

QuoteQuote:
What SiOnyx actually refer to are two things, increased infra-red sensitivity out to 2500nm (rather than ~1000nm for conventional silicon), and charge multiplication through a photo-avalanche process at low voltage.
that should be good for shoulder launched SAMs to shot down planes... may be they can filter out decoys better... may be they will be cheaper to produce... etc

10-18-2008, 07:52 PM   #8
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Waysboro va
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 517
i do not understand the "big" words being a simple hill billy so

good for photo cencers in cameras or not so good
10-20-2008, 03:24 AM   #9
Veteran Member
falconeye's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Munich, Alps, Germany
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,871
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
The quote actually is from a reader comment, not the article. The reader comment is much better than the article which is the usual copy-n-paste garbage. Thanks for having pointed to it.

Independently from me, the reader (Daniel) expresses the same concerns.

The reader (Daniel) writes "charge multiplication through a photo-avalanche process at low voltage". Actually, Sionyx doesn't say so. They say it is something "similiar" to what found in avalanche photo diodes. But otherwise, I agree to what Daniel has written in his comment.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
efficiency, information, noise, quantum, shot, technology
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Electro Spotmatic (Black) and ES 2 (Black). senator Film SLRs and Compact Film Cameras 36 02-21-2012 03:49 PM
For Sale - Sold: FREE! Pentax Silicone Skin for Optio WP/WPi rfortson Sold Items 4 06-10-2009 05:16 PM
wd-40, silicone spray?? dcmsox2004 Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 6 04-05-2009 09:59 PM
new arrival... I really like black on black Marc Langille Post Your Photos! 10 10-10-2007 05:20 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:22 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top