Selling to another country via internet - please help.

**barondla** · 10-22-2008, 06:08 AM

Someone wants to buy a highend stereo amplifier from me. He lives in Canada. To ship from US would use US Postal to avoid having to fill out all the forms (did it once with UPS - never again!).
questions
1. He wants me to low ball the value. Wouldn't this mean I can't insure it for the proper amount?
2. Is this legal?
3. Anything else I should consider shipping/selling to another country? Know Canada is pretty safe. His freedback appears fine.
This isn't my amp. Selling it for an very ill friend. Don't want this to go bad. Haven't ever sold on internet.
thanks
barondla

Check out POINT & SHOOT CONTEST #11 WINNERS in P&S forum. Enter #12. Any brand camera. Any subject. Enter now!

daacon · 10-22-2008, 06:17 AM

Low ball the value will mean they will have to pay less taxes - we have a Federal Tax called GST it is 5%. Lowballing the item is not illegal. Marking it as a gift (which would be excempt from the 5% tax) is.

Any courier can be hit and miss - they can charge as much as 20% 'brokerage' fees. I was shipped a $200 item once , Puralator - had to pay $48.00 fee

USPS is the best method - usually only get hit with 5% GST and a $5 - $10 'administration' fee.

I assume you will get the money first - so you are covered. If you want to insist on insurance for replacement value - then I would not lowball the cost.

Sometimes things get 'stuck' at the boarder - somethimes not. Usuallt pretty good , but it can happen.

My advice - mark it as true value , insure it for such and be done with it. Good luck.

**Ron Boggs** · 10-22-2008, 06:56 AM

Hadn't ever sold anything via internet contacts until I joined this forum last winter. Have since sold several times to Canada as well as a couple times to Singapore and a package leaving this week for Finland--forced learning curve.

1. Get payment first--PayPal or direct deposit into your bank account. If accepting checks or it's a PayPal check there will be several days lag time for the check to clear.
2. Most buyers with more experience than me want USPS not the private companies. Make sure you send via a method with tracking numbers. That way your buyer can see that the hold up is in Customs, not your tardiness. In the past two months I've had Canadian customs clear packages in a week or take nearly a month. If this high dollar amp is held up for weeks, you want the buyer to be able to follow the tracking number to reduce stress. USPS Express is fast and well tracked but expensive (I recommend it as the preference). You can get partial tracking by going with registered mail added to ordinary postal fees. This seemed to speed delivery for me this week to Calgary. But I've been told that customs is quite variable regardless of shipping type.
3. If you are new to PayPal, note that there are fees...probably 2.9% but I won't swear to that fact. Whether you or the buyer pays the fees is often negotiable. Also note that if you are new to PayPal, transfers from their account to your bank are limited to $500 per month until you waive the limit (there are on-screen prompts that helped me do it). Since this isn't technically your money, you need to be aware that there can be lag time for PayPal to get the money into your bank so you can pay your friend.
4. You will have to fill out customs forms for items not given as gifts valued under $40. For the amp, don't try to play the "under $40 gift" game. By the way the $40 figure is a Canadian thing and not universal to other countries. [correction: it's now $60 per Clicker post below]
5. Pray you don't need to collect on the insurance. Rumor has it that getting the money back on lost shipments takes many months--government to government transaction with post office involvement. The good news is that loss between U.S. and Canada is very rare.

Good luck! It should go fine.

Clicker · 10-22-2008, 09:28 AM

If it's "high" end i would not "low-ball" the cost and fully insure the package. I wouldn't even bother selling "high" end equipment to someone who wants all these demands who could be in all honesty a SCAMMER.

btw Canada has many scam artists, it is not that safe.

J.Scott · 10-22-2008, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Clicker

If it's "high" end i would not "low-ball" the cost and fully insure the package. I wouldn't even bother selling "high" end equipment to someone who wants all these demands who could be in all honesty a SCAMMER.

btw Canada has many scam artists, it is not that safe.

The buyer is just asking him to low-ball the price on the postal sticker so he doesn't get whacked with unnecessary taxes and charges at the post office; it doesn't mean he is a "scammer". Yeesh!
It is quite legal to send it as a 'gift' and insure it for its replacement cost. People send expensive gifts across the border all the time and insure them for the proper amount. There is nothing wrong with that at all.

Now, there is no fact to that last statement whatsoever!

But here's a fact - USA has 9X's the population as Canada, so by your logic there are 9X's more scammers there than in Canada.

Be careful of flinging rocks when you live in a glass house.

(Freak'n Canada basher!

)

Clicker · 10-22-2008, 10:46 AM

Quote:

A false or incomplete declaration could result in unnecessary delays in processing your shipment, and delivery or in enforcement action by the CCRA.

What mail/shipment items are duty- and/or tax-free to canada?

You don't have to pay duties and taxes if your mail item is:

* a gift worth $60 or less; or

* worth $20 or less.

Mail items that are gifts worth $60 or less

A gift sent by a friend or family member abroad to a person in Canada is exempt from duties and taxes as long as the gift is worth $60 or less. Alcoholic beverages, tobacco products, and advertising material do not qualify for the gift exemption.

The declaration should clearly identify the goods as a gift, and should include a gift card or tag to avoid any misunderstanding. For gifts worth more than $60, you have to pay duties and taxes on the amount over the $60 exemption.

For example, if you receive a gift from overseas worth $100, only $60 of the gift's value qualifies for the gift exemption. You will have to pay duties and taxes on the remaining portion of the value, in this case $40.

source: CCRA

send it as a gift, declare a high end amp under $60, just the weight alone will send out alerts...LOL also there are still scammers in canada regardless of population comparisons lol especially on Ebay.

**Ron Boggs** · 10-22-2008, 11:08 AM

I do quite a bit of in-person travel and business in Canada and find the risk of "scammers" to be fairly low. However, the GST tax is a common negotiating tool up there and you'll see ads like, "buy here and we pay the GST" and "buy now with no GST" etc.
In all likelyhood, the buyer isn't a full-on scam artist, but just another Canadian who plays the GST game. We Americans have our own games. For example those who live in states with sales tax (46 states I believe) commonly drive to states without sales tax to buy expensive items like camera gear, home appliances etc. And many (most?) Americans who win a raffle prize don't bother reporting it to the IRS. I'm guessing this buyer is probably just "thinking through" the GST equation because that's something that is done by Canadians.
By the way, trackable shipping and shipping requiring a signature helps minimize scam risks: if you've been paid up front, and know of the fees and shipping costs up front and then have proof of delivery with tracking numbers and/or signatures it would take a pretty tricky Canuck to do you any harm.

Clicker · 10-22-2008, 02:27 PM

Ron, were discussing about "online" activities.

J. Scott, i'm not bashing Canadians but just giving my opinions to barondla about his online sale questions.

Matt Miller · 10-22-2008, 04:17 PM

I've sold & sent lots of stuff out of the country. I always use USPS International Priority mail and have yet to experience any problems. I am asked quite often to mark a much lower value on the customs form. I do this, but inform the buyer that insurance will not be available and the risk is on them after it leaves my hands. They usually agree, given my positive feedback. On the customs form I mark the value they ask me to, I mark it as "gift", and usually put "used camera lens" or "old photo gear" as description.

**Ron Boggs** · 10-22-2008, 06:35 PM

My comments refer directly to online transactions and hint at the fact that skirting or transfering GST burdens is a cultural norm in Canada--online or anywhere else (thus the offline references)--notice the big mail order houses headquartered in Alberta with lower provincial sales tax too. My point is that in both U.S. and Canada there are cultural norms regarding attitudes about paying the govt. Even people who are considered honest may buy into the "tax games" I mentioned without being outright scammers. If I were to refuse to do business with anybody who ever won a raffle prize or bingo purse and didn't tell the IRS, then I'd be lumping an awful lot of people into the "scammers" category unfairly. Plenty of Canadians prefer to minimize their tax burdens yet aren't in any way "scammers" that need to be avoided in internet sales.
Back to the OP, as others have mentioned, it's quite common for Canadians to request what your buyer requested. Not a red flag to any of us who sell to Canadians online...

J.Scott · 10-23-2008, 03:34 AM

Originally posted by Ron Boggs

My comments refer directly to online transactions and hint at the fact that skirting or transfering GST burdens is a cultural norm in Canada--online or anywhere else (thus the offline references)--notice the big mail order houses headquartered in Alberta with lower provincial sales tax too. My point is that in both U.S. and Canada there are cultural norms regarding attitudes about paying the govt. Even people who are considered honest may buy into the "tax games" I mentioned without being outright scammers. If I were to refuse to do business with anybody who ever won a raffle prize or bingo purse and didn't tell the IRS, then I'd be lumping an awful lot of people into the "scammers" category unfairly. Plenty of Canadians prefer to minimize their tax burdens yet aren't in any way "scammers" that need to be avoided in internet sales.
Back to the OP, as others have mentioned, it's quite common for Canadians to request what your buyer requested. Not a red flag to any of us who sell to Canadians online...

I know I am not the OP but I thank you for your clarification. Most Canadians are honest, hard-working folks that whine about paying too much tax. To weasel out of paying a few bucks is not only normal but a national pastime.

Case in point: I recently ordered a Katz Eye split screen for my K10D. Of course I can't ask them to send it as a gift so I know I am going to have to bite the bullet on this one when it arrives. They ship it on Tuesday and the Postie is knocking on my door to deliver on Friday. No one was home so I went to the main Post Office to pick it up on Monday. When the clerk hands me the small package he says,"Boy, you lucked out. They didn't charge you any tax!" I thank him but he corrects me; "I had nothing to do with it. All we do is collect what Revenue Canada tell us to collect." The package is clearly marked as having contents valued at $96 US. I'm happy, the clerk's happy; we high-5 each other and I walk out a winner. I beat the system and saved paying a few tax dollars but had as much control over this as I do when I guess at numbers for the 6/49 Lottery.

I digress - back to the OP and his stereo.

JCSullivan · 10-23-2008, 04:31 AM

Scam Artist??? What's that.
Hmmm, never ran into any of them. What kind of art is Scam?

**Ron Boggs** · 10-23-2008, 06:51 AM

I think that was a typo? Maybe the term is SPAM artist...you know, the people who take pictures of a can of spam in beautiful and exotic locations...

Thanks for lightening this up a bit JC, the xenophobia was getting a little weird there for a minute.

**newmikey** · 10-23-2008, 07:11 AM

As an international Customs professional I have to disagree with most of the posters here: lowballing the value IS illegal and can result in criminal prosecution of the shipper as well as the receiver.

Customs value nowadays is defined by the GATT (General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade) rules. Simply said, Customs will first look for a transaction value i.e. the price actually paid or to be paid for goods. If that proves impossible (f.i. due to the shipper lowballing the value), they will use (in this order) the value of identical goods sold for import to Canada, the value of similar goods sold for import to Canada or in extremes, the manufacturing cost (calculated value) of the item.

All of this legalese simply means that, even if you put 1$ on the package, Customs might still tax it on the basis of 500$ if that turns out to be the items "real" value.

Customs authorities in many countries make use of manufacturers databases and pricelists. If you ever had a package "roll through" without being hit by Customs, it simply means you got lucky and it was a busy day - not that you acted correctly!

My advice? Stick to the "price actually paid" as that is one thing you can always back up with written proof (bank or CC slips, paypal receipts etc.). If the buyer wants the item and wants to defraud Customs in his country, let him but do not revert to "aiding and abetting" by making the scam possible.

Am I a hardliner? Yep, I might be, but at least you can never say you were not forewarned.

JohnV3 · 10-23-2008, 10:36 AM

Undervaluations and false Customs declarations (export and import) are crimes in most every country and the merchandise can be subject to seizure. It can be a felony in the U.S. Everybody wants to save a dollar but a person can be "penny wise and pound foolish". It is not worth the risk. Newmikey gives good advice.

10-22-2008, 06:56 AM	#3
Ron Boggs Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: MT Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,349	Hadn't ever sold anything via internet contacts until I joined this forum last winter. Have since sold several times to Canada as well as a couple times to Singapore and a package leaving this week for Finland--forced learning curve. 1. Get payment first--PayPal or direct deposit into your bank account. If accepting checks or it's a PayPal check there will be several days lag time for the check to clear. 2. Most buyers with more experience than me want USPS not the private companies. Make sure you send via a method with tracking numbers. That way your buyer can see that the hold up is in Customs, not your tardiness. In the past two months I've had Canadian customs clear packages in a week or take nearly a month. If this high dollar amp is held up for weeks, you want the buyer to be able to follow the tracking number to reduce stress. USPS Express is fast and well tracked but expensive (I recommend it as the preference). You can get partial tracking by going with registered mail added to ordinary postal fees. This seemed to speed delivery for me this week to Calgary. But I've been told that customs is quite variable regardless of shipping type. 3. If you are new to PayPal, note that there are fees...probably 2.9% but I won't swear to that fact. Whether you or the buyer pays the fees is often negotiable. Also note that if you are new to PayPal, transfers from their account to your bank are limited to $500 per month until you waive the limit (there are on-screen prompts that helped me do it). Since this isn't technically your money, you need to be aware that there can be lag time for PayPal to get the money into your bank so you can pay your friend. 4. You will have to fill out customs forms for items not given as gifts valued under $40. For the amp, don't try to play the "under $40 gift" game. By the way the $40 figure is a Canadian thing and not universal to other countries. [correction: it's now $60 per Clicker post below] 5. Pray you don't need to collect on the insurance. Rumor has it that getting the money back on lost shipments takes many months--government to government transaction with post office involvement. The good news is that loss between U.S. and Canada is very rare. Good luck! It should go fine. Last edited by Ron Boggs; 10-22-2008 at 10:52 AM. Reason: new info

10-23-2008, 03:34 AM	#11
J.Scott Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,675	Originally posted by Ron Boggs My comments refer directly to online transactions and hint at the fact that skirting or transfering GST burdens is a cultural norm in Canada--online or anywhere else (thus the offline references)--notice the big mail order houses headquartered in Alberta with lower provincial sales tax too. My point is that in both U.S. and Canada there are cultural norms regarding attitudes about paying the govt. Even people who are considered honest may buy into the "tax games" I mentioned without being outright scammers. If I were to refuse to do business with anybody who ever won a raffle prize or bingo purse and didn't tell the IRS, then I'd be lumping an awful lot of people into the "scammers" category unfairly. Plenty of Canadians prefer to minimize their tax burdens yet aren't in any way "scammers" that need to be avoided in internet sales. Back to the OP, as others have mentioned, it's quite common for Canadians to request what your buyer requested. Not a red flag to any of us who sell to Canadians online... I know I am not the OP but I thank you for your clarification. Most Canadians are honest, hard-working folks that whine about paying too much tax. To weasel out of paying a few bucks is not only normal but a national pastime. Case in point: I recently ordered a Katz Eye split screen for my K10D. Of course I can't ask them to send it as a gift so I know I am going to have to bite the bullet on this one when it arrives. They ship it on Tuesday and the Postie is knocking on my door to deliver on Friday. No one was home so I went to the main Post Office to pick it up on Monday. When the clerk hands me the small package he says,"Boy, you lucked out. They didn't charge you any tax!" I thank him but he corrects me; "I had nothing to do with it. All we do is collect what Revenue Canada tell us to collect." The package is clearly marked as having contents valued at $96 US. I'm happy, the clerk's happy; we high-5 each other and I walk out a winner. I beat the system and saved paying a few tax dollars but had as much control over this as I do when I guess at numbers for the 6/49 Lottery. I digress - back to the OP and his stereo. Last edited by J.Scott; 10-23-2008 at 03:58 AM.

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10-22-2008, 06:08 AM	#1
barondla Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: midwest, United States Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,714	Selling to another country via internet - please help. Someone wants to buy a highend stereo amplifier from me. He lives in Canada. To ship from US would use US Postal to avoid having to fill out all the forms (did it once with UPS - never again!). questions 1. He wants me to low ball the value. Wouldn't this mean I can't insure it for the proper amount? 2. Is this legal? 3. Anything else I should consider shipping/selling to another country? Know Canada is pretty safe. His freedback appears fine. This isn't my amp. Selling it for an very ill friend. Don't want this to go bad. Haven't ever sold on internet. thanks barondla Check out POINT & SHOOT CONTEST #11 WINNERS in P&S forum. Enter #12. Any brand camera. Any subject. Enter now!

10-22-2008, 06:17 AM	#2
daacon Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Alberta,Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 20,914	Low ball the value will mean they will have to pay less taxes - we have a Federal Tax called GST it is 5%. Lowballing the item is not illegal. Marking it as a gift (which would be excempt from the 5% tax) is. Any courier can be hit and miss - they can charge as much as 20% 'brokerage' fees. I was shipped a $200 item once , Puralator - had to pay $48.00 fee USPS is the best method - usually only get hit with 5% GST and a $5 - $10 'administration' fee. I assume you will get the money first - so you are covered. If you want to insist on insurance for replacement value - then I would not lowball the cost. Sometimes things get 'stuck' at the boarder - somethimes not. Usuallt pretty good , but it can happen. My advice - mark it as true value , insure it for such and be done with it. Good luck.

10-22-2008, 09:28 AM	#4
Clicker Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,241	If it's "high" end i would not "low-ball" the cost and fully insure the package. I wouldn't even bother selling "high" end equipment to someone who wants all these demands who could be in all honesty a SCAMMER. btw Canada has many scam artists, it is not that safe.

10-22-2008, 10:24 AM	#5
J.Scott Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,675	Originally posted by Clicker If it's "high" end i would not "low-ball" the cost and fully insure the package. I wouldn't even bother selling "high" end equipment to someone who wants all these demands who could be in all honesty a SCAMMER. btw Canada has many scam artists, it is not that safe. The buyer is just asking him to low-ball the price on the postal sticker so he doesn't get whacked with unnecessary taxes and charges at the post office; it doesn't mean he is a "scammer". Yeesh! It is quite legal to send it as a 'gift' and insure it for its replacement cost. People send expensive gifts across the border all the time and insure them for the proper amount. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Now, there is no fact to that last statement whatsoever! But here's a fact - USA has 9X's the population as Canada, so by your logic there are 9X's more scammers there than in Canada. Be careful of flinging rocks when you live in a glass house. (Freak'n Canada basher! )

10-22-2008, 10:46 AM	#6
Clicker Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,241	Quote: A false or incomplete declaration could result in unnecessary delays in processing your shipment, and delivery or in enforcement action by the CCRA. What mail/shipment items are duty- and/or tax-free to canada? You don't have to pay duties and taxes if your mail item is: * a gift worth $60 or less; or * worth $20 or less. Mail items that are gifts worth $60 or less A gift sent by a friend or family member abroad to a person in Canada is exempt from duties and taxes as long as the gift is worth $60 or less. Alcoholic beverages, tobacco products, and advertising material do not qualify for the gift exemption. The declaration should clearly identify the goods as a gift, and should include a gift card or tag to avoid any misunderstanding. For gifts worth more than $60, you have to pay duties and taxes on the amount over the $60 exemption. For example, if you receive a gift from overseas worth $100, only $60 of the gift's value qualifies for the gift exemption. You will have to pay duties and taxes on the remaining portion of the value, in this case $40. source: CCRA send it as a gift, declare a high end amp under $60, just the weight alone will send out alerts...LOL also there are still scammers in canada regardless of population comparisons lol especially on Ebay.

10-22-2008, 11:08 AM	#7
Ron Boggs Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: MT Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,349	I do quite a bit of in-person travel and business in Canada and find the risk of "scammers" to be fairly low. However, the GST tax is a common negotiating tool up there and you'll see ads like, "buy here and we pay the GST" and "buy now with no GST" etc. In all likelyhood, the buyer isn't a full-on scam artist, but just another Canadian who plays the GST game. We Americans have our own games. For example those who live in states with sales tax (46 states I believe) commonly drive to states without sales tax to buy expensive items like camera gear, home appliances etc. And many (most?) Americans who win a raffle prize don't bother reporting it to the IRS. I'm guessing this buyer is probably just "thinking through" the GST equation because that's something that is done by Canadians. By the way, trackable shipping and shipping requiring a signature helps minimize scam risks: if you've been paid up front, and know of the fees and shipping costs up front and then have proof of delivery with tracking numbers and/or signatures it would take a pretty tricky Canuck to do you any harm.

10-22-2008, 02:27 PM	#8
Clicker Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,241	Ron, were discussing about "online" activities. J. Scott, i'm not bashing Canadians but just giving my opinions to barondla about his online sale questions.

10-22-2008, 04:17 PM	#9
Matt Miller Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Cambridge, Iowa Photos: Gallery Posts: 339	I've sold & sent lots of stuff out of the country. I always use USPS International Priority mail and have yet to experience any problems. I am asked quite often to mark a much lower value on the customs form. I do this, but inform the buyer that insurance will not be available and the risk is on them after it leaves my hands. They usually agree, given my positive feedback. On the customs form I mark the value they ask me to, I mark it as "gift", and usually put "used camera lens" or "old photo gear" as description.

10-22-2008, 06:35 PM	#10
Ron Boggs Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: MT Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,349	My comments refer directly to online transactions and hint at the fact that skirting or transfering GST burdens is a cultural norm in Canada--online or anywhere else (thus the offline references)--notice the big mail order houses headquartered in Alberta with lower provincial sales tax too. My point is that in both U.S. and Canada there are cultural norms regarding attitudes about paying the govt. Even people who are considered honest may buy into the "tax games" I mentioned without being outright scammers. If I were to refuse to do business with anybody who ever won a raffle prize or bingo purse and didn't tell the IRS, then I'd be lumping an awful lot of people into the "scammers" category unfairly. Plenty of Canadians prefer to minimize their tax burdens yet aren't in any way "scammers" that need to be avoided in internet sales. Back to the OP, as others have mentioned, it's quite common for Canadians to request what your buyer requested. Not a red flag to any of us who sell to Canadians online...

10-23-2008, 04:31 AM	#12
JCSullivan Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Windsor, Canada Posts: 3,056	Scam Artist??? What's that. Hmmm, never ran into any of them. What kind of art is Scam?

10-23-2008, 06:51 AM	#13
Ron Boggs Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: MT Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,349	I think that was a typo? Maybe the term is SPAM artist...you know, the people who take pictures of a can of spam in beautiful and exotic locations... Thanks for lightening this up a bit JC, the xenophobia was getting a little weird there for a minute.

10-23-2008, 07:11 AM	#14
newmikey Site Supporter Join Date: May 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,287	As an international Customs professional I have to disagree with most of the posters here: lowballing the value IS illegal and can result in criminal prosecution of the shipper as well as the receiver. Customs value nowadays is defined by the GATT (General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade) rules. Simply said, Customs will first look for a transaction value i.e. the price actually paid or to be paid for goods. If that proves impossible (f.i. due to the shipper lowballing the value), they will use (in this order) the value of identical goods sold for import to Canada, the value of similar goods sold for import to Canada or in extremes, the manufacturing cost (calculated value) of the item. All of this legalese simply means that, even if you put 1$ on the package, Customs might still tax it on the basis of 500$ if that turns out to be the items "real" value. Customs authorities in many countries make use of manufacturers databases and pricelists. If you ever had a package "roll through" without being hit by Customs, it simply means you got lucky and it was a busy day - not that you acted correctly! My advice? Stick to the "price actually paid" as that is one thing you can always back up with written proof (bank or CC slips, paypal receipts etc.). If the buyer wants the item and wants to defraud Customs in his country, let him but do not revert to "aiding and abetting" by making the scam possible. Am I a hardliner? Yep, I might be, but at least you can never say you were not forewarned.

10-23-2008, 10:36 AM	#15
JohnV3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Phoenix, AZ USA Posts: 165	Undervaluations and false Customs declarations (export and import) are crimes in most every country and the merchandise can be subject to seizure. It can be a felony in the U.S. Everybody wants to save a dollar but a person can be "penny wise and pound foolish". It is not worth the risk. Newmikey gives good advice.