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02-05-2020, 01:22 PM - 2 Likes   #1
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I hate Paypal... seriously I do.

Just sharing this as an information piece as I know that many of us here use the forum market place as well as buying and selling elsewhere. I have business where I ship alot of merchandise ( non photo related) and just became aware of a new policy at paypal. Apparently about 4 months ago they changed their refund policy.


If you cancel and refund a customers order, no matter what the reason you still have to pay the paypal transaction fees associated with the original sale.


Example.. Someone in Canada buys a lens from a USA seller for $1,021.97. The paypal fees and cross border fees would be $45.27 If either the buyer or the seller cancels the transaction and the money is refunded , the seller still owes Paypal the $45.27 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the transaction were just in the USA between buyer and seller, it would be the same out come.. Paypal keeps all the fees.



I know this as fact as I just got off the phone with Customer service. The Rep I spoke with said people were not happy at all with the change... Really? who would be besides paypal.


What a crummy way to do business.

Al

02-05-2020, 01:51 PM   #2
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Wow. I just Google'd this to confirm what the customer service rep told you, and yes - it appears this practice has just begun.

Clearly, it's up to PayPal how it runs its businesses, and it's quite at liberty to put such practices in place. But, equally, we customers are at liberty to choose our payment methods, and I think a lot of folks will cease to use PayPal because of this. I suspect it may even affect eBay business, since PayPal is pretty much the de facto standard for eBay payment processing (or, at least, it has been)...
02-05-2020, 01:52 PM - 8 Likes   #3
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Paypal isn't responsible when a deal falls through. The Paypal fee is a transaction fee, not some guarantee of buyer euphoria. When you sell something a transaction takes place. Just because a return/refund happens does not negate that a transaction took place, it actually means that two transactions took place.
02-05-2020, 01:58 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Paypal isn't responsible when a deal falls through. The Paypal fee is a transaction fee, not some guarantee of buyer euphoria. When you sell something a transaction takes place. Just because a return/refund happens does not negate that a transaction took place, it actually means that two transactions took place.
True, but they aren't losing any money at 3% of every transaction they process! That is more than the interchange fees most credit cards charge nowadays, and they still give you the whole amount if you dispute the charge.


Last edited by SSGGeezer; 02-05-2020 at 01:59 PM. Reason: fat fingered spelling!
02-05-2020, 02:03 PM   #5
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QuoteQuote:
I'm shocked, shocked I tell you . . .
that a business tries to make money

what business doesn't ?

even nonprofits generally try to make money to pay staff and expenses, unless they have alternative funding sources

are there other options to use other than pay pal that don't charge a transaction fee or will refund the fee if the sale fail ?
02-05-2020, 02:18 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Paypal isn't responsible when a deal falls through. The Paypal fee is a transaction fee, not some guarantee of buyer euphoria. When you sell something a transaction takes place. Just because a return/refund happens does not negate that a transaction took place, it actually means that two transactions took place.
Absolutely - and in this sense, PayPal isn't doing anything differently than other payment services, e.g. Visa. But that's the thing... PayPal is becoming just like other payment services - there's less and less differentiation. It's going to become less attractive to small businesses and individuals selling online... and for those who continue to use it, it's going to make them far less inclined to offer refunds without a fight. With eBay (for example), where bias swings towards the buyer in relation to honouring refund requests, that could mean small businesses and individuals are less likely to use that marketplace.

Again, it's entirely PayPal's right to make this change, and I understand the reasons. I'm just not so sure how that will pan out for its business - and I think it'll make a number of individuals, selling items of no-longer-wanted photographic equipment online (including our Marketplace), far less willing to offer refunds. It's bad for both seller and buyer...
02-05-2020, 02:24 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by SSGGeezer Quote
True, but they aren't losing any money at 3% of every transaction they process! That is more than the interchange fees most credit cards charge nowadays, and they still give you the whole amount if you dispute the charge.
The idea isn't to not lose money, the idea is to make money.
Depending on how the deal falls through, the seller can keep the paypal fee, issue a 100% refund, or split the fee.
If it's a simple case of buyer remorse, I don't see why the seller should have to lose money. Let the buyer take the hit if he changes his mind after the fact.
Where it would get dicey is when a product doesn't match the description. My idea of very good condition might not be the same as yours, for example. This might be a situation where a partial refund of fees would be in order.
If the product is flat out not as advertised, then that becomes a situation where the buyer should have no risk. At that point, the vendor should be paying return shipping as well.

---------- Post added Feb 5th, 2020 at 03:32 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Absolutely - and in this sense, PayPal isn't doing anything differently than other payment services, e.g. Visa. But that's the thing... PayPal is becoming just like other payment services - there's less and less differentiation. It's going to become less attractive to small businesses and individuals selling online... and for those who continue to use it, it's going to make them far less inclined to offer refunds without a fight. With eBay (for example), where bias swings towards the buyer in relation to honouring refund requests, that could mean small businesses and individuals are less likely to use that marketplace.

Again, it's entirely PayPal's right to make this change, and I understand the reasons. I'm just not so sure how that will pan out for its business - and I think it'll make a number of individuals, selling items of no-longer-wanted photographic equipment online (including our Marketplace), far less willing to offer refunds. It's bad for both seller and buyer...
When I bought my last Rottweiler, I did it via direct money transfer from bank to bank. I believe it was called an Interac eTranfer or some such. There were no fees attached to it. Granted for many people this might be an unacceptable leap of faith, but when I sell something via payPal, I make sure the money is safely in my bank account out of their reach before I send the product anyway, and I don't let Paypal have access to my credit cards. I have a bank account just for PayPal, and it has just enough funds in it to keep it open except for the few minutes when someone pays me for something.
So that is a leap of faith for a buyer anyway.
I'm not sure if eTransfers work from country to country or how exchange rates are calculated. I dio expect Paypal takes a bit of flesh for currency exchange too.

The takeaway for me is to not buy anything you don't really want or need, and don't misrepresent anything you are selling.
02-05-2020, 02:48 PM - 2 Likes   #8
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I've been a paypal user for about 20 years. Never one issue with them ever. And after having read this, I plan to keep using them as before.

02-05-2020, 02:48 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
'm not sure if eTransfers work from country to country or how exchange rates are calculated. I dio expect Paypal takes a bit of flesh for currency exchange too.
The takeaway for me is to not buy anything you don't really want or need, and don't misrepresent anything you are selling.
They do take a bite on currency exchange also, but actually less than using a credit or debit card out of your home nation. I agree wholeheartedly with the second sentence.
I still think they could give most of it back and perhaps charge a 1% fee instead of the whole shooting match. PP also makes money on interest while they hold your cash, fractions of a cent AKA breakage adds up in a hurry when you handle the volumes of cash that they do.
02-06-2020, 01:04 AM   #10
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I just read the Paypal terms here in Germany and they refund the variable fees but not the fixed ones (0.35 EUR). So here in Germany/Europe you will get most of your paid fees back.
02-06-2020, 01:29 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxrookie Quote
I just read the Paypal terms here in Germany and they refund the variable fees but not the fixed ones (0.35 EUR). So here in Germany/Europe you will get most of your paid fees back.
Those may be the current terms, but I think you'll find they're about to change. Here in the UK, the new terms kick in as of March 5th.
02-06-2020, 03:05 AM - 1 Like   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Those may be the current terms, but I think you'll find they're about to change. Here in the UK, the new terms kick in as of March 5th.
Well, that might be the end of Paypal in Germany then as you have to accept 14 day returns without questions asked and you have to refund fully to your customer.
I cannot see any reason to use Paypal as a retailer then and would switch to other options.

Or in other words: Paypal is Doooomed !

Last edited by Pentaxrookie; 02-06-2020 at 03:05 AM. Reason: Grammar
02-06-2020, 05:13 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by brewmaster15 Quote
Just sharing this as an information piece as I know that many of us here use the forum market place as well as buying and selling elsewhere. I have business where I ship alot of merchandise ( non photo related) and just became aware of a new policy at paypal. Apparently about 4 months ago they changed their refund policy.


If you cancel and refund a customers order, no matter what the reason you still have to pay the paypal transaction fees associated with the original sale.


Example.. Someone in Canada buys a lens from a USA seller for $1,021.97. The paypal fees and cross border fees would be $45.27 If either the buyer or the seller cancels the transaction and the money is refunded , the seller still owes Paypal the $45.27 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the transaction were just in the USA between buyer and seller, it would be the same out come.. Paypal keeps all the fees.



I know this as fact as I just got off the phone with Customer service. The Rep I spoke with said people were not happy at all with the change... Really? who would be besides paypal.


What a crummy way to do business.

Al
And if you'd read the "terms of service" contract, well, as a lawyer, my opinion is, no one in his right mind would do business with Paypal.
02-06-2020, 05:25 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by dlh Quote
And if you'd read the "terms of service" contract, well, as a lawyer, my opinion is, no one in his right mind would do business with Paypal.
interested minds still want to know

1 what are the options to using something other than pay pal

2 the costs of using those options

3 the risk of using those options

especially for those who do not usually sell or buy merchandise over the net
02-06-2020, 06:01 AM   #15
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I'd suggest talking to someone at your bank about that.

The main risk in accepting credit card payments yourself is that the purchaser has sixty days from the date of his statement reflecting the sale to back out the transaction with his credit card issuer if he claims nondelivery, returned merchandise, or merchandise so seriously nonconforming as to render the sale nugatory. The seller gets to respond, of course, but it's up to the card issuer to decide who's lying. (By the way, anyone who scams a seller that way is guilty of wire fraud, a felony.)

The main way that large institutional buyers have traditionally protected themselves in international transactions is by means of letters of credit. But that's expensive and impractical for occasional and relatively small purchases. Still, the best protection you can get will be through your local bank. Consider the fees a cost of doing business, and overhead that will be covered by the purchase price.
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