[Serkevan]

Without an economy there are no taxes without taxes no social programs. A cash based economy is essential in the present times. The barter system is too slow and inefficient. Cash is extremely efficient. There is no way a barter system could bring enough food and services into a major metropolitan area. Like it or not the best method for economic growth is the free market system. It is not perfect, but is has been the most successful one to date. Like it or not destroying your economy is not something to be taken lightly. Hitler rose from the ashes of the destroyed economy of Germany. That is a case of something being done to punish a nation and prevent them from ever being able to wage war again igniting the greatest war in human history.


As for me, I am for opening things back up. I am also in the age group most at risk. If it comes down to my kids and grandkids being subjected to government enforced poverty, then I am more than willing to take that risk. That is not being selfish. It is certainly less risky that the state director of health issuing a order forcing nursing homes to take in COVID-19 patients, To date that has led to some 5,300 nursing home deaths. When the decision was made the effect of the virus on the elderly and morbidly sick was already well known. The governor says that there will be no investigation of that decision. "It's good to be the king". If this is an example of how a government has the best interests of the people at heart I'll take my chances with opening things back up.

I'm not about to argue economic theory, but the point went several kilometers over your head.

[photoptimist]

Without an economy there are no taxes without taxes no social programs. A cash based economy is essential in the present times. The barter system is too slow and inefficient. Cash is extremely efficient. There is no way a barter system could bring enough food and services into a major metropolitan area. Like it or not the best method for economic growth is the free market system. It is not perfect, but is has been the most successful one to date. Like it or not destroying your economy is not something to be taken lightly. Hitler rose from the ashes of the destroyed economy of Germany. That is a case of something being done to punish a nation and prevent them from ever being able to wage war again igniting the greatest war in human history.


As for me, I am for opening things back up. I am also in the age group most at risk. If it comes down to my kids and grandkids being subjected to government enforced poverty, then I am more than willing to take that risk. That is not being selfish. It is certainly less risky that the state director of health issuing a order forcing nursing homes to take in COVID-19 patients, To date that has led to some 5,300 nursing home deaths. When the decision was made the effect of the virus on the elderly and morbidly sick was already well known. The governor says that there will be no investigation of that decision. "It's good to be the king". If this is an example of how a government has the best interests of the people at heart I'll take my chances with opening things back up.

We agree on the powerful role of the economy in creating the worldly goods and financial resources. There's no doubt that a lot of people are hurting from the closure of the country's many service businesses and substantial reduction in GDP. However, I'd not go so far as to say the economy is "destroyed" anymore than it was during the Great Depression (which the US survived without electing a Hitler).

As for reopening, the problem is that government actually lacks the power to reopen the economy. Sure, the officials can permit the buildings such as restaurants, shops, bars, sports venues, etc. to reopen. But they cannot force citizens to go out, expose themselves (and their families) to health risks, and spend freely as they did before. Most people are worried that the reopening is too soon. COVID continues to infect lots of people. Thousands are still dying every day. A solid half the US population has some risk factor for COVID-19 whether it's obesity, diabetes, hypertension, heart issues, kidney issues, lung issues, or simply age. I doubt they'll be willing to jostle along in TSA's lines, sit in middle seats, or cope with the kinds of crowds that service businesses depend on to stay alive.

The tourism, restaurant, hotel, airline, and sport sectors of the economy will all be dead industries until people actually feel safe.

[ChrisPlatt]

It's pretty clear from the news photos of crowds in areas that have "opened up" that many folks are eager for some social contact.
I'm sure we'll see more evidence of this Memorial Day weekend.

However if/when infection rates begin to surge again that may change pretty quickly...

Chris

[aslyfox]

it was just announced the first confirmed case in a nursing home had been found in my county

new confirmed cases yesterday 17 and 13 today

total confirmed 247

Kansas new cases 118 yesterday, 284 today

total confirmed cases 8,909

---

Last edited by aslyfox; 05-22-2020 at 05:35 PM.

[gaweidert]

I'm not about to argue economic theory, but the point went several kilometers over your head.

Sorry to have offended you.

[timb64]

Very sorry to hear the virus is now appearing in the US care home system.If it follows the pattern we've experienced in the UK,the outcome is bleak.Deaths in this sector make up about a third of the total.

[cartesio]

Something similar in Italy. In this page they write the average age of deceased people is 79.

Situazione Coronavirus Italia - LIVE

[Serkevan]

Sorry to have offended you.

No no, it's just that getting into the nitty gritty would be too political. However, it was late at night here, so I decided to invoke Godwin's law and go to sleep . Comparing a - quite literally - demolished country with a situation that causes zero damage to the infrastructure is, with respect, wrong. If anything, Covid-19 will remind us of the importance of good healthcare systems and economic safety nets.

In any case, I was talking in general terms more than about the pandemic (or the US, for that matter*) in particular - although I don't like how some rich people secluded in their mansions keep yelling for reopening everything and damn the consequences. The mortality rate for poor people is much higher because they typically don't have jobs where they can work from home. The point is, the world can survive for a long time in this situation. We just need to band together and some people have to ignore profit for a while but yeah, that's not gonna happen. Nothing to do with the barter system or purposefully destroying the economic tissue - I honestly don't know where those came from.


Also, the free market doesn't exist and has never existed as such. There, I said it.

*The US economy being hit harder is wholly unexpected considering that worker protections are basically nil, but neither Dave, RoxnDox or me talked about any specific countries I believe - and many countries other than the US *have* safety nets and means to curb the impact of the pandemic on the economy.

---------- Post added 05-23-20 at 02:06 AM ----------

Very sorry to hear the virus is now appearing in the US care home system.If it follows the pattern we've experienced in the UK,the outcome is bleak.Deaths in this sector make up about a third of the total.

Similar situation everywhere, unfortunately. Care homes are always going to be a hotspot for such a virus.

[Rondec]

Without an economy there are no taxes without taxes no social programs. A cash based economy is essential in the present times. The barter system is too slow and inefficient. Cash is extremely efficient. There is no way a barter system could bring enough food and services into a major metropolitan area. Like it or not the best method for economic growth is the free market system. It is not perfect, but is has been the most successful one to date. Like it or not destroying your economy is not something to be taken lightly. Hitler rose from the ashes of the destroyed economy of Germany. That is a case of something being done to punish a nation and prevent them from ever being able to wage war again igniting the greatest war in human history.


As for me, I am for opening things back up. I am also in the age group most at risk. If it comes down to my kids and grandkids being subjected to government enforced poverty, then I am more than willing to take that risk. That is not being selfish. It is certainly less risky that the state director of health issuing a order forcing nursing homes to take in COVID-19 patients, To date that has led to some 5,300 nursing home deaths. When the decision was made the effect of the virus on the elderly and morbidly sick was already well known. The governor says that there will be no investigation of that decision. "It's good to be the king". If this is an example of how a government has the best interests of the people at heart I'll take my chances with opening things back up.

I just don't think it is as easy as hanging out banners saying that the economy is open or things like that. Many people are staying home and will continue to do so till they feel safe and they'll feel safe after COVID numbers fall and not before.

As I have looked at it, the number one thing actually is getting people to wear masks. If this could just be done really consistently, I think numbers would continue to fall, even with reopening businesses, but there does seem to be quite a bit of push back on that concept.

Unfortunately, Virginia really doesn't seem to be declining in any sort of significant way. Just slow steady increase in COVID cases and deaths. But I also think that people have tended to not adjust their behavior here. The rural part of Virginia where I live hasn't really added new cases recently, but I don't see people wearing masks or taking any precautions and so "if" there was an outbreak, I think it would spread pretty quickly. I hope there isn't. I hope everything continues to decline, but I also think it makes total sense to get people to do things like wear masks when they go out.

---------- Post added 05-23-20 at 06:00 AM ----------

No no, it's just that getting into the nitty gritty would be too political. However, it was late at night here, so I decided to invoke Godwin's law and go to sleep . Comparing a - quite literally - demolished country with a situation that causes zero damage to the infrastructure is, with respect, wrong. If anything, Covid-19 will remind us of the importance of good healthcare systems and economic safety nets.

In any case, I was talking in general terms more than about the pandemic (or the US, for that matter*) in particular - although I don't like how some rich people secluded in their mansions keep yelling for reopening everything and damn the consequences. The mortality rate for poor people is much higher because they typically don't have jobs where they can work from home. The point is, the world can survive for a long time in this situation. We just need to band together and some people have to ignore profit for a while but yeah, that's not gonna happen. Nothing to do with the barter system or purposefully destroying the economic tissue - I honestly don't know where those came from.


Also, the free market doesn't exist and has never existed as such. There, I said it.

*The US economy being hit harder is wholly unexpected considering that worker protections are basically nil, but neither Dave, RoxnDox or me talked about any specific countries I believe - and many countries other than the US *have* safety nets and means to curb the impact of the pandemic on the economy.

---------- Post added 05-23-20 at 02:06 AM ----------



Similar situation everywhere, unfortunately. Care homes are always going to be a hotspot for such a virus.

It is really hard with regard to nursing homes. If you have a high enough prevalence in the community and not enough testing, you are guaranteed to have asymptomatic workers bring covid into the facilities. That's just the way that it is.

At this point, nursing homes have been locked down for over a month in most places. They are having their employees stay home for any symptom. They are doing twice a shift temperature checks. But it just takes one nurse, or janitor to come in shedding virus but with not caught otherwise and they have an outbreak. And those are always worse because of the age and debility of the people housed there.

[Serkevan]

It is really hard with regard to nursing homes. If you have a high enough prevalence in the community and not enough testing, you are guaranteed to have asymptomatic workers bring covid into the facilities. That's just the way that it is.

At this point, nursing homes have been locked down for over a month in most places. They are having their employees stay home for any symptom. They are doing twice a shift temperature checks. But it just takes one nurse, or janitor to come in shedding virus but with not caught otherwise and they have an outbreak. And those are always worse because of the age and debility of the people housed there.

It absolutely is, particularly because presymptomatic workers will wreak havoc if they happen to have a shift immediately before they get a temperature or any other symptom. And once the cat is out of the bag it's... well, more of the "fox in a chicken coop" metaphor .

There's no way to be airtight unless the workers are basically confined to the care home (or are tested every day, which I guess is beyond the means of most countries in any case).

[aslyfox]

I just don't think it is as easy as hanging out banners saying that the economy is open or things like that. Many people are staying home and will continue to do so till they feel safe and they'll feel safe after COVID numbers fall and not before.

As I have looked at it, the number one thing actually is getting people to wear masks. If this could just be done really consistently, I think numbers would continue to fall, even with reopening businesses, but there does seem to be quite a bit of push back on that concept.

I agree

although masks are imperfect, they do work to a degree ( psychologically if nothing else otherwise a percentage if you don't make the mistake of losing social distancing and other preventive measures while wearing the mask )

. . . . At this point, nursing homes have been locked down for over a month in most places. They are having their employees stay home for any symptom. They are doing twice a shift temperature checks. But it just takes one nurse, or janitor to come in shedding virus but with not caught otherwise and they have an outbreak. And those are always worse because of the age and debility of the people housed there.

locked down but there are still those who must visit to provide supplies

who knows the cause of the contamination

in our community the local health official had said we had been lucky so far with our nursing homes population

now it appears that that luck may have turned

Very sorry to hear the virus is now appearing in the US care home system.If it follows the pattern we've experienced in the UK,the outcome is bleak.Deaths in this sector make up about a third of the total.

it's been there for a long time in other parts of the country

in my own community, [ county ]

it had not appeared until now

of course my county here in Kansas can't compare to other areas: 247 confirmed cases ( 138.5 per 100,000 )

[aslyfox]

regarding use of masks

I'm with this guy:

. . .“If someone is wearing a mask, . . . I would ask people to try to dial up your empathy and your understanding, . . . They might be doing it because they’ve got a five year old who’s been going through cancer treatments.”
. . .

“They might have vulnerable adults in their life who … currently have covid and are fighting,” he continued. “So again, I would just love to see our state, as part of being '. . . smart,’ also be ‘ . . . kind,’ ‘. . . empathetic.’"

smart guy

[photoptimist]

regarding use of masks

I'm with this guy:




smart guy

I'm with that guy, too.

But to me, needing to tell people to have empathy for those wearing masks is like needing to tell people to have empathy for those who don't use their fingers to wipe their rear ends ("because maybe those with clean fingers have a child or elder family member who might be harmed by dysentery, cholera, norovirus, hepatitis, etc.")

At this point wearing a mask is a fundamental matter of public health and hygiene. Those who don't wear masks are no different than those who walk around with feces on their fingers.

Rather than have empathy for mask wearers, we should have antipathy for those who don't wear masks. Public spaces should be closed to them and they should be shunned because they are and will continue to be the reason that the virus continues to spread and the economy cannot reopen without killing lots of people.

[Serkevan]

regarding use of masks

I'm with this guy:




smart guy

The fact that anyone would get mad at other people for wearing a mask is beyond baffling. I haven't seen it personally here, luckily (and by the accounts of my acquaintances in both Spain, Italy and Germany there's been no real pushback about the masks themselves). I guess that the Covidiots make the news more often than the sensible people, though.

---------- Post added 05-23-20 at 05:21 AM ----------

I'm with that guy, too.

But to me, needing to tell people to have empathy for those wearing masks is like needing to tell people to have empathy for those who don't use their fingers to wipe their rear ends ("because maybe those with clean fingers have a child or elder family member who might be harmed by dysentery, cholera, norovirus, hepatitis, etc.")

At this point wearing a mask is a fundamental matter of public health and hygiene. Those who don't wear masks are no different than those who walk around with feces on their fingers.

Rather than have empathy for mask wearers, we should have antipathy for those who don't wear masks. Public spaces should be closed to them and they should be shunned because they are and will continue to be the reason that the virus continues to spread and the economy cannot reopen without killing lots of people.

What gets me the most are the videos of people arguing that they aren't allowed on the premises of businesses without a mask (to the point of murder at least once, and beatings several times ). For all the talk about freedom and liberty, that seems to be limited to the mask-me-not crowd, not extending to very private businesses with very clear admission policies. They also wouldn't let you go in stark naked, right?

[Rondec]

regarding use of masks

I'm with this guy:




smart guy

If you looked at the link I posted earlier, analysis shows that masks are better at preventing growth and spread of COVID than any other option currently available to us.

To me, masks are a bit like vaccines. They require a certain level of use in the community in order to be effective. So, if 20 percent of the population is wearing them, then there is probably no point (they aren't preventing those people from getting infected and they aren't doing much to prevent spread of infection either). On the other hand, if 90 percent of people use masks, then there could be significant reduction in spread of COVID. It isn't really just about empathy, it is about being smart and doing something that is safe, effective and reasonably inexpensive to try to control the virus.

---------- Post added 05-23-20 at 09:00 AM ----------

I'm with that guy, too.

But to me, needing to tell people to have empathy for those wearing masks is like needing to tell people to have empathy for those who don't use their fingers to wipe their rear ends ("because maybe those with clean fingers have a child or elder family member who might be harmed by dysentery, cholera, norovirus, hepatitis, etc.")

At this point wearing a mask is a fundamental matter of public health and hygiene. Those who don't wear masks are no different than those who walk around with feces on their fingers.

Rather than have empathy for mask wearers, we should have antipathy for those who don't wear masks. Public spaces should be closed to them and they should be shunned because they are and will continue to be the reason that the virus continues to spread and the economy cannot reopen without killing lots of people.

Right. I think there should be some explanation from those who refuse to wear masks. Somehow the reverse has become true in this country and that is a problem.