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03-13-2020, 10:26 AM - 1 Like   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by nonpigliounoshoot Quote
many do not even notice that they have it, they are without any symptoms, and without any personal consequence, but they contribute to spreading it.
Yes, and so far no one can change it, only South Korea with their recent testing of everyone is ahead of any country in the world.

Clearly, the world it not prepared to this. WHO failed to estimate the danger, and it was reacting very slow.
The only way to stop spreading efficiently was an early mandatory testing. It never happened, it may happen in case of the future global pandemic.


Right now we are all the Ginnie pigs. That's the reality we have to deal with. Stay well, everybody.

03-13-2020, 11:18 AM - 5 Likes   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Well, I do worry about the membership of Pentax Forums in the event of a Pandemic as Coronavirus death rates are much higher among those over 70 and I am afraid we skew that direction.
Given how rarely people sight Pentax users in crowds, methinks PF members probably practice social distancing quite naturally!

(Note: PF members are NOT stuck indoors like other coronavirus shut-ins. With their robust, weather-resistant cameras, they aren't restricted to shooting crowded fair-weather tourist attractions like the users of lesser brands are.)
03-13-2020, 04:00 PM - 2 Likes   #33
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03-14-2020, 06:22 AM - 1 Like   #34
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The risk of death from the irresponsible use of motor vehicles is much greater. And we could do something about that if we wanted. Fact is, most people can't imagine their own deaths and haven't come to grips with their own mortality, and they only really care what happens to other people when it affects them personally. So, truth be told, we don't really care about systemic threats, and, both as a society and individually, we're not going to do a lick more to solve the problem than is minimally required of us.

When I was a kid, there was a nearby town in which pigeons would line up along the top of the covering over a restaurant's back door. On Sunday mornings ( at that time, it was illegal to do business on Sundays, so there was never anyone around), I'd drive out there and park in the alley behind the restaurant with a pneumatic handgun that shot .177 cal. pellets. I'd sit out there for a couple of hours doing nothing but shooting pigeons. When one got shot, the others near it would sort of cock their heads to see what happened, then they'd shuffle around to take up the now available extra space. When humans die, the others sort of cock their heads to see what happened, then they forget all about it and go on with life. We've been doing that for about 250 million years, now, because death is a natural part of life.

What we lack is the ability to control our own behavior in order to optimize consequences, and those who lack the ability to foresee the natural and probable consequences of their actions are unwilling or unable to listen to those who can. They want to do what they want to do when they want to do it, and short of physical force, they cannot be dissuaded. The humans are "eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil"; i.e., consuming the product of their ability to distinguish what they like ("good") from that which they dislike ("evil").

I once rented office space in the upper floor of a bank building. The bank contracted for cleaning services. The women tasked with the cleaning would drag greasy rags over the mirror in the bathroom because that's what they'd been told to do - it never occurred to them that they were supposed to get the mirrors clean. Similarly, I hired a construction company to put new sheathing on my house - so the guys who showed up slapped a bunch of plywood on the walls, but failed to remove the storm windows, moldings, and electrical boxes first, and either covered stuff up or did butt-joints up against the woodwork. It didn't occur to them that they were putting up sheathing, not just plywood. The moral of the story is that people who are supposed to deliver masks will do that, but without any regard for whether they're rated for stopping viruses. People who are supposed to be screening passengers will take the temperatures, but won't do it in a uniform way and will ignore people who look ok.

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03-14-2020, 12:30 PM - 13 Likes   #35
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Everyone has their own reactions and ways of dealing with situations like this. Actually, that's a big part of the problem - some folks just continue as if nothing serious is happening, taking no precautions whatsoever and potentially spreading the disease in the process; whilst at the other end of the scale, some folks are in full end-of-the-world survivalist "prepper" mode, buying up and squirrelling away a year's worth of food, household, sanitary and medicinal goods... clearing supermarket shelves, placing a strain on supplies for others and whole commercial supply chains (that, if everyone bought moderately, would quickly adjust to cope) In the circumstances, I respectfully suggest that both extremes - whilst understandable - might be inappropriate, unhelpful and potentially dangerous to the wider community.

Here in the UK, we're now at the stage (arguably, several days or even a couple of weeks past that stage) where everyone, IMHO, should be taking basic precautions and making some reasonable preparations proportionate to the event. Regardless of what official sources tell us (and I don't intend to discuss politics at all due to forum rules), one simple fact we can all rely on is that the infection is spreading globally, more people are falling sick, and a much smaller yet significant and increasing number are dying (mostly elderly and / or with existing health problems). We can't influence how our country's officials are dealing with the situation, nor necessarily depend on the information we're being drip-fed, but I firmly believe there are things we can and should be doing - according to our individual circumstances and means, of course - to protect ourselves and consider others whilst not putting unnecessary strain on the system.

My Mum and Dad are in their 70s and live with me. My biggest concern is that they might become infected, as both have some minor-to-moderate health issues. For my own part, I'm 50 and in "OK" health, but I take immunosuppressant medication for rheumatoid arthritis which may, I suppose, put me at slightly increased risk (I really don't know). For these reasons and others, we're no longer receiving visitors to our home - workmen, friends, even family. We're not attending non-critical "check-up" appointments at our doctors and dentists. Importantly, IMHO, we're not mixing with others socially outside our home. We're not going to restaurants, the cinema or theatre (I regret the impact on local and national trade, but my family's saftey has to come first). By choice, I'm now the only one shopping for groceries until this blows over, and I'm buying slightly larger quantities and slightly different items to extend the time between shopping trips. When I shop, I'm wearing a carefully-fitted FFP3 mask covering my nose and mouth - as much for everyone else's protection as my own, since I may be infected and not know it - and I'm cleansing my hands with a strong alcohol gel before, during and after my trip, then washing my hands after unpacking groceries at home. I've bought and stored just one month's supply of long-life food, drink, sanitary, house-hold and medicinal items for the three of us - not because I expect we'll need to live off these alone (though we could), but to tide us over should we have to self-isolate at any time, or if we want or need to further extend the time between my grocery shopping trips. As a family, we're all washing our hands thoroughly and regularly (though perhaps not regularly enough, just yet - it's difficult to build the habit ), trying not to touch our faces, and each using separate hand, bath and kitchen towels. We're a tactile and loving family who typically hug, and I'd normally kiss my Mum on the cheek before she retires to bed. That's had to stop for now, I'm afraid. We have boxes of tissues around our home, and if we cough or sneeze, we're trying to do so into tissues, binning them immediately afterwards and washing our hands. Since we're no longer mixing with others as a general rule, I'm trying to ensure that we go out occasionally each week, by car, to somewhere pleasant where we can walk and take some fresh air, and perhaps enjoy sandwiches, coffee and tea that we've prepared and taken with us - just for a change of scenery and to stop us going "stir crazy" Oh, and I'm keeping my car's fuel tank reasonably well topped up (half a tank minimum) - not because I expect to be doing any long trips, but just in case there are temporary supply problems at any stage (lack of delivery drivers etc.)... I want to be sure I have more than enough diesel to get my folks or myself to any allotted hospital in the unfortunate event that might be necessary.

Beyond all that, we're doing exactly the same things at home as always... cooking, enjoying decent food and a glass or two of good wine, cleaning (a bit more than usual), reading, playing board games, surfing the web, watching films and TV, and listening to the radio. My Dad enjoys talking to his buddies on ham radio at night, and I play with my cameras and lenses or hang around on PF doing my mod stuff, while my Mum plays with our cat and watches the cuddly-fluffy-animal YouTube videos she's so addicted to

We're keeping abreast of developments daily in case we should need to adjust our precautions or take certain actions, but we're not obsessing over them. What we are absolutely NOT doing is panicking or worrying about all this, because that wouldn't be constructive to our situation or anyone else's. A little alarm and due concern (even a modicum of fear, initially) are natural - yet quite positive, since they can focus the mind on taking sensible, proportionate actions. But panicking? Worrying? No. I won't have that at all.

I sincerely wish every one of our members and their families the best of health and minimum lasting impact from the pandemic. I don't worry, but it does concern me - and you good folks are truly in my thoughts. Let's do all we can to protect ourselves and show consideration for others, but let's not lose our sense of proportion. Worse things than this have befallen the world before now. And please... keep on keeping on, having as much fun as possible. It's so important

Last edited by BigMackCam; 03-14-2020 at 05:15 PM. Reason: Added further prep details
03-14-2020, 01:24 PM - 2 Likes   #36
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BigMackCamera,

Very good post. Thank you for posting. Your emphasis on reasonable response according to reasonable need, and not to panic is a good, general message. Detailing your family's personal response, reinforces your message well.

Les
03-14-2020, 03:23 PM - 7 Likes   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I fear there could be a lot of boomer deaths in the upcoming months due to the cavalier approach by your generation to this pandemic..
Growing up White, male, heterosexual . . . I missed out on being part of the main categories that attracted prejudice. Now that I'm 73yo, I am experiencing it for the first time, and that was even before the "okay Boomer" ageism tag that’s encouraging prejudice. Not everyone who ages gets more set in their ways, less curious, more opinionated, or is doomed to live with an evermore deficient immune system. I've called out prejudice all my life, so it's not just because I have finally achieved prejudice-attracting status that I say it's insulting to hear it directed toward an entire generation.

The statement “due to the cavalier approach by your generation to this pandemic” isn’t only insulting, in my opinion it misidentifies the problem's causes which means solutions for the problem will fail. The cavalier-ness you observe has nothing to do with the generation, it has to do with the overall ignorance of the US population, and the selfish ways that develop in certain people who get power and fail to use it to benefit the citizenry. Neither your generation, nor any generation, is immune to this. The ways a sizable majority of non-boomer younger people are behaving/eating/learning now will seriously hurt and impede them in old age. Every generation also has it’s more enlightened members of course, just as the boomers did, but unfortunately it isn’t the majority of any generation.

No doubt, however, that older citizens are more susceptible to viruses than younger ones, but why? Go to the grocery store and examine the shopping cart contents of old and young alike and it can be shocking if you yourself eat well. Young bodies better survive on all that empty-calorie, pesticide and preservative-laden food, but after a lifetime of nutritionless eating the body becomes depleted. And let’s not overlook the long-term effects of alcohol consumption which, again, is no less prevalent in the young—in fact more prevalent according to these statistics. The myth that a small amount of alcohol each day has health benefits was debunked by this study. Personally I found every drink I took set back my immune system. (For example, when as a young man I got sniffles, my body could fight it off. But if I had a beer assuming I was getting better, that act several times resulted in getting fully sick.)

Have you noticed that all the recommendations, and this is worldwide, for dealing with coronavirus has to do with avoidance, and not a peep about strengthening one's immune system? There's only one reason people die from covid19 and all other flu-type viruses, and that is one's immune system fails to handle things; similarly, there's mainly one reason some only get mild symptoms—one's immune system deals with it. When viruses can replicate faster than our system is able to produce antibodies, that’s when we lose the war.

Me, I live a simple vegetarian life, and have for going on 50 years. Whole grains, fruit, fresh carrot juice, vegetables, a lot of nutritional yeast (best immune system builder in the universe) that I put in a guacamole I make, or on popcorn, or just mixed into OJ, and a couple immune system supplements like black elderberry and probiotics. I haven't been ill in eleven years (when I ended my affair with beer), so like everyone I'm hoping for the best. But I at least know that for some time I've been preparing for the worst as well.

Last edited by les3547; 03-21-2020 at 06:53 AM.
03-14-2020, 04:17 PM - 1 Like   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Everyone has their own reactions and ways of dealing with situations like this. Actually, that's a big part of the problem - some folks just continue as if nothing serious is happening, taking no precautions whatsoever and potentially spreading the disease in the process; whilst at the other end of the scale, some folks are in full end-of-the-world survivalist "prepper" mode, buying up and squirrelling away a year's worth of food, household, sanitary and medicinal goods... placing a strain on supplies for others and whole commercial supply chains (that, if everyone bought moderately, would quickly adjust to cope) In the circumstances, I respectfully suggest that both extremes - whilst understandable - might be inappropriate, unhelpful and potentially dangerous to the wider community.

Here in the UK, we're now at the stage (arguably, several days or even a couple of weeks past that stage) where everyone, IMHO, should be taking basic precautions and making some reasonable preparations proportionate to the event. Regardless of what official sources tell us (and I don't intend to discuss politics at all due to forum rules), one simple fact we can all rely on is that the infection is spreading globally, more people are falling sick, and a much smaller yet significant and increasing number are dying (mostly elderly and / or with existing health problems). We can't influence how our country's officials are dealing with the situation, nor necessarily depend on the information we're being drip-fed, but I firmly believe there are things we can and should be doing - according to our individual circumstances and means, of course - to protect ourselves and consider others whilst not putting unnecessary strain on the system.

My Mum and Dad are in their 70s and live with me. My biggest concern is that they might become infected, as both have some minor-to-moderate health issues. For my own part, I'm 50 and in "OK" health, but I take immunosuppressant medication for rheumatoid arthritis which may, I suppose, put me at slightly increased risk (I really don't know). For these reasons and others, we're no longer receiving visitors to our home - workmen, friends, even family. We're not attending non-critical "check-up" appointments at our doctors and dentists. Importantly, IMHO, we're not mixing with others socially outside our home. We're not going to restaurants, the cinema or theatre (I regret the impact on local and national trade, but my family's saftey has to come first). By choice, I'm now the only one shopping for groceries until this blows over, and I'm buying slightly larger quantities and slightly different items to extend the time between shopping trips. When I shop, I'm wearing a carefully-fitted FFP3 mask covering my nose and mouth - as much for everyone else's protection as my own, since I may be infected and not know it - and I'm cleansing my hands with a strong alcohol gel before, during and after my trip, then washing my hands after unpacking groceries at home. I've bought and stored just one month's supply of long-life food, drink, sanitary, house-hold and medicinal items for the three of us - not because I expect we'll need to live off these alone (though we could), but to tide us over should we have to self-isolate at any time, or if we want or need to further extend the time between my grocery shopping trips. As a family, we're all washing our hands thoroughly and regularly (though perhaps not regularly enough, just yet - it's difficult to build the habit ), trying not to touch our faces, and each using separate hand, bath and kitchen towels. We're a tactile and loving family who typically hug, and I'd normally kiss my Mum on the cheek before she retires to bed. That's had to stop for now, I'm afraid. We have boxes of tissues around our home, and if we cough or sneeze, we're trying to do so into tissues, binning them immediately afterwards and washing our hands. Since we're no longer mixing with others as a general rule, I'm trying to ensure that we go out occasionally each week, by car, to somewhere pleasant where we can walk and take some fresh air, and perhaps enjoy sandwiches, coffee and tea that we've prepared and taken with us - just for a change of scenery and to stop us going "stir crazy" Oh, and I'm keeping my car's fuel tank reasonably well topped up (half a tank minimum) - not because I expect to be doing any long trips, but just in case there are temporary supply problems at any stage (lack of delivery drivers etc.)... I want to be sure I have more than enough diesel to get my folks or myself to any allotted hospital in the unfortunate event that might be necessary.

Beyond all that, we're doing exactly the same things at home as always... cooking, enjoying decent food and a glass or two of good wine, cleaning (a bit more than usual), reading, playing board games, surfing the web, watching films and TV, and listening to the radio; my Dad enjoys talking to his buddies on ham radio at night, and I play with my cameras and lenses or hang around on PF doing my mod stuff, while my Mum plays with our cat and watches the cuddly-fluffy-animal YouTube videos she's so addicted to

We're keeping abreast of developments daily in case we should need to adjust our precautions or take certain actions, but we're not obsessing over them. What we are absolutely NOT doing is panicking or worrying about all this, because that wouldn't be constructive to our situation or anyone else's. A little alarm and due concern (even a modicum of fear, initially) are unavoidable - yet quite positive, since they can focus the mind on taking sensible, proportionate actions. But panicking? Worrying? No. I won't have that at all.

I sincerely wish every one of our members and their families the best of health and minimum lasting impact from the pandemic. I don't worry, but it does concern me - and you good folks are truly in my thoughts. Let's do all we can to protect ourselves and show consideration for others, but let's not lose our sense of proportion. Worse things than this have befallen the world before now. And please... keep on keeping on, having as much fun as possible. It's so important
Caution, but not panic.......................................................................I like it Mike.

03-14-2020, 04:52 PM   #39
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I have difficulty with translation but I would like to highlight one thing. I read of panic; panic is irrational. We have to use logic and that's just what our rulers have to use and what we need to understand. In war, or in competitions, you have to study and know your enemy and your opponent. The virus has its own strength in rapid spread, and very fast. It feeds with contacts. The contacts are his gasoline. I can't win a 100-meter race against a car, but I'm sure I'll win a 1000km race because it will run out of gasoline if it's not added. I have to be patient and not hurt in traveling those 1000 km. Everyone is worried about the 100 meters want to compete and challenge where you can't win. It is not only the individual life that depends, it also depends on the life of the entire community. I have seen that now France, the USA and Spain have also changed their attitude. It will be very hard because the road is very long and full of so many difficulties. He had to leave earlier, now the car already has a lot of gasoline. Only UK has so far chosen the wrong path. I hope changes, the more gasoline you put in the car the longer the road and many will get hurt. It's just fools for me. A general who does not know his own strength and does not know the weaknesses of the enemy, is a bad general. Send your soldiers to die without having a winning strategy.
03-14-2020, 05:07 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by nonpigliounoshoot Quote
I have difficulty with translation but I would like to highlight one thing. I read of panic; panic is irrational. We have to use logic and that's just what our rulers have to use and what we need to understand. In war, or in competitions, you have to study and know your enemy and your opponent. The virus has its own strength in rapid spread, and very fast. It feeds with contacts. The contacts are his gasoline. I can't win a 100-meter race against a car, but I'm sure I'll win a 1000km race because it will run out of gasoline if it's not added. I have to be patient and not hurt in traveling those 1000 km. Everyone is worried about the 100 meters want to compete and challenge where you can't win. It is not only the individual life that depends, it also depends on the life of the entire community. I have seen that now France, the USA and Spain have also changed their attitude. It will be very hard because the road is very long and full of so many difficulties. He had to leave earlier, now the car already has a lot of gasoline. Only UK has so far chosen the wrong path. I hope changes, the more gasoline you put in the car the longer the road and many will get hurt. It's just fools for me. A general who does not know his own strength and does not know the weaknesses of the enemy, is a bad general. Send your soldiers to die without having a winning strategy.
As a UK resident I’m interested to learn why you think this is the only country to “choose the wrong path”.

I have no particular view one way or the other but I am just interested to learn why you’ve made such a judgment.
03-14-2020, 05:07 PM - 3 Likes   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by nonpigliounoshoot Quote
I have difficulty with translation but I would like to highlight one thing. I read of panic; panic is irrational. We have to use logic and that's just what our rulers have to use and what we need to understand. In war, or in competitions, you have to study and know your enemy and your opponent. The virus has its own strength in rapid spread, and very fast. It feeds with contacts. The contacts are his gasoline. I can't win a 100-meter race against a car, but I'm sure I'll win a 1000km race because it will run out of gasoline if it's not added. I have to be patient and not hurt in traveling those 1000 km. Everyone is worried about the 100 meters want to compete and challenge where you can't win. It is not only the individual life that depends, it also depends on the life of the entire community. I have seen that now France, the USA and Spain have also changed their attitude. It will be very hard because the road is very long and full of so many difficulties. He had to leave earlier, now the car already has a lot of gasoline. Only UK has so far chosen the wrong path. I hope changes, the more gasoline you put in the car the longer the road and many will get hurt. It's just fools for me. A general who does not know his own strength and does not know the weaknesses of the enemy, is a bad general. Send your soldiers to die without having a winning strategy.
But as I already said, we can't change what our countries' official channels are doing (again, let's not get into politics ). It's really not worth getting wound up over that, as it's completely out of our hands. What we can do, as individuals and families, is take some sensible precautions, make some reasonable preparations (thinking not just of ourselves but others too), and carry on with enjoying life as best we can in the circumstances. If enough of us do that, it might reduce or slow the spread and death toll. If enough don't, it probably won't - but at least individually we can know we did our bit, and put the majority of our energies into being as happy as possible despite the unfortunate circumstances.

As the great Warren Zevon said to David Letterman shortly before his untimely death, "Enjoy every sandwich" Very wise words...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 03-14-2020 at 05:25 PM.
03-15-2020, 02:53 AM - 3 Likes   #42
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@mee - I hate to point out the obvious, but it is very likely that a large proportion of the people who steer the world safely through this crisis will also be baby boomers.

Your last paragraph is grossly over-simplified and morally questionable.
03-15-2020, 03:25 AM   #43
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It's really clear that the brunt of deaths will come from the older population. That's been true everywhere so far. Italian population skews older and has a high percentage of smokers which has to do with the toll it has taken there. I do expect cases to start to fall in Italy and Spain as they take more dramatic quarantine stances. Unfortunately for something similar to happen in the US, we probably will need to have a lot more deaths than have been seen so far.
03-15-2020, 03:27 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
some folks are in full end-of-the-world survivalist "prepper" mode, buying up and squirrelling away a year's worth of food, household, sanitary and medicinal goods... clearing supermarket shelves, placing a strain on supplies for others and whole commercial supply chains (that, if everyone bought moderately, would quickly adjust to cope)


My Mum and Dad are in their 70s and live with me. My biggest concern is that they might become infected, as both have some minor-to-moderate health issues. my family's saftey has to come first).

By choice, I'm now the only one shopping for groceries until this blows over, and I'm buying slightly larger quantities and slightly different items to extend the time between shopping trips. When I shop, I'm wearing a carefully-fitted FFP3 mask covering my nose and mouth - as much for everyone else's protection as my own, since I may be infected and not know it - and I'm cleansing my hands with a strong alcohol gel before, during and after my trip, then washing my hands after unpacking groceries at home.
If your family safety comes first, then you stock all supplies for the month to avoid those grocery trips completely. Wearing the mask, cleaning your hands, but bringing yourself in with unpacked groceries into the house does not protect you completely from the virus. Staying away from the people- does.
03-15-2020, 03:32 AM   #45
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I've just seen video of lines at airports people stacked together like sardines in a can

follow link for article and photo

QuoteQuote:
Coronavirus screening causes massive bottlenecks at U.S. airports

Airports around the country were thrown into chaos Saturday as workers scrambled to roll out the Trump administration’s hastily arranged health screenings for travelers returning from Europe.

Scores of anxious passengers said they encountered jam-packed terminals, long lines and hours of delays as they waited to be questioned by health authorities at some of the busiest travel hubs in the United States. . . .
Europe travel ban 'enhanced screening' at U.S. airports bring delays, crowds - The Washington Post

what the ______________ is going on

" social distancing " indeed
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