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03-23-2020, 04:13 PM - 2 Likes   #571
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I've no problem with the official lockdown at all. I welcome it, given that some folks seem unable to think for, rather than of, themselves.
Mike I agree, in principal, however.............
I just received a PM from a member. I won't disclose his name, or the text of the message, but here's my reply:
"The current world situation SUCKS, period, and I don't believe there are any right or wrong responses to it. Each and every one of us has to do what we feel is best for ourselves and our families. I implore you to do what you feel is best for you and yours. Anything less is irresponsible.
Lets just hope that we all come out of this okay."

03-23-2020, 04:32 PM - 1 Like   #572
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Mike I agree, in principal, however.............
I just received a PM from a member. I won't disclose his name, or the text of the message, but here's my reply:
"The current world situation SUCKS, period, and I don't believe there are any right or wrong responses to it. Each and every one of us has to do what we feel is best for ourselves and our families. I implore you to do what you feel is best for you and yours. Anything less is irresponsible.
Lets just hope that we all come out of this okay."
Jim, I agree with most of your sentiment - probably all of it, depending on the context, which I think is key here.

I'll admit, I'm no saint. I'll protect my family first, myself second, and everyone else after that. If it comes down to us or others, I'll look after us first and foremost. But I do consider others - as I'm quite sure you do too.

I fully realise that, for those who are working jobs, earning a living to make ends meet, it's an awfully difficult call to stay home. I'm hugely sympathetic there, though I still question the wisdom and wider consideration of folks packing into subway trains and potentially (though let's be frank - in some cases, certainly) passing the virus on. I also realise that folks need to shop for groceries, get fuel, pay bills, pick up prescription medications, mail etc. And I totally accept that everyone needs some time outside their homes, some exercise, for the sake of mental and physical well-being. I'm no different in that respect; I like (actually, need) my walks and fresh air, and change of scenery. But that can be achieved without congregating in groups, without coming into close proximity with others - in my opinion, at least. Even the odd minor transgression, accidental or otherwise, is understandable. I have no real issue with that.

I'm all for folks being able to do what they want so long as it doesn't hurt others or put them at risk. Sadly, the way some folks in the UK have been acting, despite official advice, has put themselves and others at considerable risk, and the potential scale of impact from that behaviour is - it would seem - much bigger than they realise (otherwise surely they wouldn't act that way).

So, I agree wholeheartedly with "do what you feel is best for you and yours. Anything less is irresponsible", so long as it's based on necessity rather than privilege - given the circumstances.

I'm not saying this in argument - or, rather, not in conflict. I feel strongly about it, though

Last edited by BigMackCam; 03-23-2020 at 04:46 PM.
03-23-2020, 04:42 PM - 1 Like   #573
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
so long as it's based on necessity rather than privilege - given the circumstances.
Bingo!
03-23-2020, 04:53 PM - 3 Likes   #574
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
I just received a PM from a member. I won't disclose his name, or the text of the message, but here's my reply:
"The current world situation SUCKS, period, and I don't believe there are any right or wrong responses to it. Each and every one of us has to do what we feel is best for ourselves and our families. I implore you to do what you feel is best for you and yours. Anything less is irresponsible."
I'm sorry, but this attitude is in itself irresponsible.

There are wrong responses to this crisis, and we have seen plenty of examples of their disastrous consequences. We have seen a few examples of the right responses.

The best thing for us to do is to follow the considered advice of experts, and collectively do the right thing. An "every man for himself" attitude is the path to oblivion.

03-23-2020, 04:55 PM   #575
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my problem is

as I have stated before

what to do when the " advice " is incomplete or confusing
03-23-2020, 05:01 PM - 1 Like   #576
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Ensure as far as possible that it is completed and/or clarified, and that it is widely adhered to.
03-23-2020, 05:01 PM   #577
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QuoteOriginally posted by aslyfox Quote
my problem is

as I have stated before

what to do when the " advice " is incomplete or confusing
And as I've responded before, Allen, it's just "common sense" - a simple judgement call for most. We should take official advice to be the bare minimum, and exercise whatever additional measures we feel are necessary and/or practical to protect ourselves and others. I mean, if someone was dropping bombs, we wouldn't wait for specific advice or clarification before taking cover, right? We surely don't need to be led by the hand on this... do we?

Some folks appear to be thinking along the lines of "What can I get away with and still be OK?" rather than "Based on the data I'm seeing, how bad does this look? Really bad, yeah? OK - I ought to do everything I can to protect my family, myself, my friends and everyone else - especially the health workers who are picking up the pieces"...


Last edited by BigMackCam; 03-23-2020 at 05:19 PM.
03-23-2020, 05:02 PM - 1 Like   #578
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QuoteOriginally posted by aslyfox Quote
my problem is

as I have stated before

what to do when the " advice " is incomplete or confusing
You play it safe; always better to err on the side of caution.

---------- Post added 03-23-20 at 05:05 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
We surely don't need to be led by the hand on this... do we?
I am very afraid that such is precisely the case.
03-23-2020, 05:14 PM - 1 Like   #579
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sandy Hancock Quote
I'm sorry, but this attitude is in itself irresponsible.

There are wrong responses to this crisis, and we have seen plenty of examples of their disastrous consequences. We have seen a few examples of the right responses.

The best thing for us to do is to follow the considered advice of experts, and collectively do the right thing. An "every man for himself" attitude is the path to oblivion.
That depends on the advice given, doesn't it?
03-23-2020, 05:38 PM - 2 Likes   #580
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
That depends on the advice given, doesn't it?
Actually, I suspect even imperfect measures, if they are adopted widely and well, will be considerably better than a chaotic free-for-all.
03-23-2020, 05:40 PM   #581
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sandy Hancock Quote
Actually, I suspect even imperfect measures, if they are adopted widely and well, will be considerably better than a chaotic free-for-all.
Probably so.
03-23-2020, 06:13 PM - 3 Likes   #582
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I can't help but wonder, that if all the resources that we are deploying (or sacrificing economically) for this cause, mostly to protect the elderly or less healthy members of our society, were deployed against the less fortunate in third world countries to fight famine and disease etc..... it would return a 10 times extra "life lived return on effort"*. Off course, I know things don't work that way and as a whole and we place different value on others life.

* would $10,000 dollars spent on a 80 yo in a western country to give them 3 more years of life give a African 2yo 40 more years? I'd guess it could give five 2yo's 40 more years each.
03-23-2020, 06:24 PM   #583
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QuoteOriginally posted by noelpolar Quote
I can't help but wonder, that if all the resources that we are deploying (or sacrificing economically) for this cause, mostly to protect the elderly or less healthy members of our society, were deployed against the less fortunate in third world countries to fight famine and disease etc..... it would return a 10 times extra "life lived return on effort"*. Off course, I know things don't work that way and as a whole and we place different value on others life.

* would $10,000 dollars spent on a 80 yo in a western country to give them 3 more years of life give a African 2yo 40 more years? I'd guess it could give five 2yo's 40 more years each.
I think it's pretty natural to protect your own first, and others second... whether it's family, friends, countrymen, etc. Compassion and consideration, even some degree of sacrifice, are important - but as a general rule it's not natural for them to be implemented to one's own significant and lasting detriment...
03-23-2020, 06:39 PM   #584
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Some poorer and 3rd world countries still live with the fear of disease that we do not. Since the advent of antibiotics and multiple vaccines, I feel that since those inventions, we have become very complacent. There would not be many people around now who would remember the polio epidemic. Fear is a great teacher, but we have been taking our health and health systems for granted too long methinks.
03-23-2020, 06:59 PM - 1 Like   #585
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I also think some responses can be judged good and bad. The "all individuals' personal responses are OK" only applies to responses with effects limited to only the individual who picked that response. For example, people might reasonably disagree on personal priorities and personal risk taking. If a motorcyclist wants to ride without a helmet, that's up to them. I can pity their family but I'm not going to prohibit the risks they take with their own lives. However, when people's responses start sickening and killing others, then I think it's fair to call their response "wrong," "stupid," "shameful," etc. etc.

What saddens me is that this could have been $100 billion government budget-blip problem for the US (spent mostly on early aggressive testing, tracing, and isolation of a modest number of COVID cases) with no lock downs, no job losses, no stock market crash, and limited loss of life. This COULD have been "not as bad as the flu" for most of the population but only it had been treated like it had the potential to kill millions and cost trillions (which seems to be the response the US picked instead).

What upsets me (and perhaps Mike and others) is how the opportunity to squelch the spread was blatantly ignored. This could have been inexpensive and painless, but ....... GRRRR! SIGH!

The only "good" news is that the virus will certainly kill more of the supporters of the ignore-the-experts, this-is-only-the-flu, we-are-free-to-assemble crowd. They tend to be older and less likely practice safe behaviors. But their short-sighted and small-minded response is harming a lot of others.
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