[Rondec]

the cost of doing business ???



Reopening could cause 233,000 extra deaths by June 30 but save up to 18M jobs: Report
________________________________

who would believe it



The 5G coronavirus conspiracy theory shows how easily misinformation spreads ? and how dangerous it is - The Washington Post

bad information can be found on the web

and some folks act on such " information "

I still struggle with concept of opening the economy when people don't feel safe. Plenty of restaurant owners and other small businesses in Georgia decided not to open because they didn't think it was safe enough for them to do so. Telling them "OK, everything is fine now" doesn't change how they feel.

I suppose it the part of politicians to hold news conferences and proclaim grandly things like "Mission Accomplished" and "Ready for Business," but I don't see that many of the people in little communities around the country are there yet by any means.

[beholder3]

My prediction:

1. politicians open the floodgates in May
2. infections will start rising again in June with July being wild
3. the real disaster (what we had until now with economy, victims and restrictions will be remembered as kindergarten)
4. open end

[brewmaster15]

I still struggle with concept of opening the economy when people don't feel safe. Plenty of restaurant owners and other small businesses in Georgia decided not to open because they didn't think it was safe enough for them to do so. Telling them "OK, everything is fine now" doesn't change how they feel.

I suppose it the part of politicians to hold news conferences and proclaim grandly things like "Mission Accomplished" and "Ready for Business," but I don't see that many of the people in little communities around the country are there yet by any means.

Lets face it...Unfortunately, at least in the USA there are things that complicate having well thought out plans that put peoples safety first, and are actually based on historical precedent, science, and common sense. The major one that comes to mind is an event in NOVEMBER that I am very sure is a mega factor.. The economy and everday citizen Jobs are of course important to all the players, but our leaders Jobs are also on the line.


Al

[noelpolar]

My prediction:

1. politicians open the floodgates in May
2. infections will start rising again in June with July being wild
3. the real disaster (what we had until now with economy, victims and restrictions will be remembered as kindergarten)
4. open end

Yep.... I'd be stocking up on toilet paper for sure.

[aslyfox]

I still struggle with concept of opening the economy when people don't feel safe. Plenty of restaurant owners and other small businesses in Georgia decided not to open because they didn't think it was safe enough for them to do so. Telling them "OK, everything is fine now" doesn't change how they feel.

I suppose it the part of politicians to hold news conferences and proclaim grandly things like "Mission Accomplished" and "Ready for Business," but I don't see that many of the people in little communities around the country are there yet by any means.

it's a " Hobson's choice " for sure

[ the necessity of accepting one of two or more equally objectionable alternatives ]

think about that restaurant opening up

workers may face the choice of coming to work or lose unemployment benefits in many states

kitchen staff with " social distances " not likely at all, working with masks and gloves

wait staff interacting with customers who may or may not be infected who are not masked ( think about it folks, how many diners will wear masks while eating or drinking )

employers working with limited profit margins based on how many customers can be served being told to survive, with fixed costs, while limiting the number of customers who can be served.

[Rondec]

Lets face it...Unfortunately, at least in the USA there are things that complicate having well thought out plans that put peoples safety first, and are actually based on historical precedent, science, and common sense. The major one that comes to mind is an event in NOVEMBER that I am very sure is a mega factor.. The economy and everday citizen Jobs are of course important to all the players, but our leaders Jobs are also on the line.


Al

I agree. But, the "experts" are now telling us that we have to expect to live with this virus in our midst until the beginning of next year -- maybe even another year from now. Understanding that we can't just shut things down completely for that long (and politics aside), we have to figure out what living with covid looks like.

Clearly it involves some level of precaution on the part of businesses -- extra sanitation, decreased numbers of people in the business at one time and maybe requiring masks. Some of it is going to be higher levels of testing and then tracking infected individuals.

I am very much a proponent of caution, but if you tell me that this isn't going away for another 9 months then my answer is that we have to figure out how to continue functioning as a society, even as it is present in our midst. If people knew that it would be gone in another three or four weeks with continued quarantine, I think they would feel better about hanging in there, but that seems unlikely. We aren't China and our citizens rebel, even at the idea of wearing a facemask to Walmart.

[brewmaster15]

it's a " Hobson's choice " for sure

[ the necessity of accepting one of two or more equally objectionable alternatives ]

think about that restaurant opening up

workers may face the choice of coming to work or lose unemployment benefits in many states

kitchen staff with " social distances " not likely at all, working with masks and gloves

wait staff interacting with customers who may or may not be infected who are not masked ( think about it folks, how many diners will wear masks while eating or drinking )

employers working with limited profit margins based on how many customers can be served being told to survive, with fixed costs, while limiting the number of customers who can be served.

I'm kind of wondering how many members here at PF at this point in time would feel comfortable enough to eat out at a dine in restaurant? Not worth the risk to me and my family...Its going to be a very long time before I trust our health and well being in that scenario and others like it. I feel badly for workers and business owners in these areas but nothing is more important than my families health and well being. There are other more safe options to eating out... IE.. cook.

I dont see how without a vaccine or effective treatments that places inherently prone to disease transmission will be safe regardless what politicians say.
AL

[aslyfox]

. . . We aren't China and our citizens rebel, even at the idea of wearing a facemask to Walmart.

realistically

what is the penalty for not complying with restrictions ?

you going to be arrested and put in jail ?

not very likely for a lot of us

a lot of people feel, despite statistics or educational attempts, " I won't get it "

________________

everyone is guessing

and a percentage do not believe what we are being told by " authority "

[Rondec]

realistically

what is the penalty for not complying with restrictions ?

you going to be arrested and put in jail ?

not very likely for a lot of us

a lot of people feel, despite statistics or educational attempts, " I won't get it "

My mother lives in a community in Florida that has a curfew from 12 to 6 am. She was out walking at 5:30 in the morning for exercise and a police officer stopped her and gave her a warning that next time she would get a 500 dollar fine. If she had a dog, it would be different, but simply going for exercise at that time is a no-no.

Of course, this really upset her and has made her angry and frustrated with the whole situation. There is no threat of jail. This isn't even a misdemeanor, but it is still upsetting for a 70 year old woman who lives in a one bedroom condo in a community where things have shut down for the time being.

I hear her frustration and still encourage her to comply as I think things will be loosened up soon enough. But you multiply her angst by a bunch of people and maybe you get a feeling where many communities are at right now.

[brewmaster15]

I agree. But, the "experts" are now telling us that we have to expect to live with this virus in our midst until the beginning of next year -- maybe even another year from now. Understanding that we can't just shut things down completely for that long (and politics aside), we have to figure out what living with covid looks like.

Clearly it involves some level of precaution on the part of businesses -- extra sanitation, decreased numbers of people in the business at one time and maybe requiring masks. Some of it is going to be higher levels of testing and then tracking infected individuals.

I am very much a proponent of caution, but if you tell me that this isn't going away for another 9 months then my answer is that we have to figure out how to continue functioning as a society, even as it is present in our midst. If people knew that it would be gone in another three or four weeks with continued quarantine, I think they would feel better about hanging in there, but that seems unlikely. We aren't China and our citizens rebel, even at the idea of wearing a facemask to Walmart.

I know and do agree with you.its a reality we have to accept. However, people also may need to adapt and accept that at least for the short terms they may not be able to do what they always did as they always did. We havent faced something like this since the spansh flu and that took 2 years to run its course.If you read what was done then what they failed at its not a great outlook for rushing today. We do have tools today they did not.. but our overall short sightedness hasnt changed much in 100 years.

I also do not believe the 9 month scenario thats being touted. I worked in pharmaceuticals and drug development I think they are being overly optimistic because thats what people want to and need to hear.
I hope I am wrong on that but I am very skeptical on it.

AL

[Serkevan]

I know and do agree with you.its a reality we have to accept. However, people also may need to adapt and accept that at least for the short terms they may not be able to do what they always did as they always did. We havent faced something like this since the spansh flu and that took 2 years to run its course.If you read what was done then what they failed at its not a great outlook for rushing today. We do have tools today they did not.. but our overall short sightedness hasnt changed much in 100 years.

I also do not believe the 9 month scenario thats being touted. I worked in pharmaceuticals and drug development I think they are being overly optimistic because thats what people want to and need to hear.
I hope I am wrong on that but I am very skeptical on it.

AL

Yeah it does seem like the typical case of carrot on a stick, saying "just a month more" so people don't get too discouraged.
This pandemic is exposing a lot of problems with our way of viewing society, the economic system, international cooperation, or even what our core values are. And I'm not sure we will learn the right lessons. The world seems to be polarized between anger and panic, and neither of those gives birth to good reactions.

[aslyfox]

. . . I also do not believe the 9 month scenario thats being touted. I worked in pharmaceuticals and drug development I think they are being overly optimistic because thats what people want to and need to hear.
I hope I am wrong on that but I am very skeptical on it.

AL

well I don't do that

but I do agree with you

[Fluegel]

I'm kind of wondering how many members here at PF at this point in time would feel comfortable enough to eat out at a dine in restaurant? Not worth the risk to me and my family...Its going to be a very long time before I trust our health and well being in that scenario and others like it. I feel badly for workers and business owners in these areas but nothing is more important than my families health and well being. There are other more safe options to eating out... IE.. cook.

I dont see how without a vaccine or effective treatments that places inherently prone to disease transmission will be safe regardless what politicians say.
AL

Dining out would not bother me, there are simply no restaurants open in my area.
It is hard to get a sandwich or anything else to eat or drink when traveling.

To be cautious is sensible these days.
OTOH I did not avoid small distance traveling by public transport.
Just went on buying camera gear as I used to.

Being older and in good health I do not belong to the endangered group of people with existing health issues.
I have survived terror attacks and several wars. This nasty little virus is not going to get me.

[photoptimist]

Yeah it does seem like the typical case of carrot on a stick, saying "just a month more" so people don't get too discouraged.
This pandemic is exposing a lot of problems with our way of viewing society, the economic system, international cooperation, or even what our core values are. And I'm not sure we will learn the right lessons. The world seems to be polarized between anger and panic, and neither of those gives birth to good reactions.

The problem with our core values is that virus throws them in conflict with each other. People want 1) life, 2) a good standard of living, and 3) freedom. The virus forces them to give up on at least one of these where before most had all three. We could have life and a great economy but we'd have to submit to test-and-trace. We could have freedom and a great economy but we'd have kill a few percent of the population. We could have life and freedom, but we'd have to kill the economy for a year or two.

Worse, the virus forces us to make social choices by which some individuals impose their values on others. And it's not just leaders who do the imposing. Every time an individual leaves their house for anything beyond the true essentials and comes within 6 feet of someone else, does not wear a mask, touches their face, etc., they are imposing their personal preference for freedom at the detriment of other's personal preferences for life. Or if someone refuses to leave their house to go to work, eat at restaurants, shop at stores, then they are imposing their preference for life on other people's preferences for a good standard of living. Or if someone refuses test-and-trace, they are imposing their preference for freedom on others' preferences for life and a good standard of living.

Ironically, it may be our individuality that is the biggest problem of all. If individuals did not matter, then losing a few percent of population would not matter; losing one's work and savings would not matter, and losing one's freedom from government control would not matter. But these do matter very deeply and that's a huge problem because the virus is forcing each of us and all of us to choose.

[aslyfox]

for some - as long as " they " are put at risk, not me - I don't care - I want to do what I want to do - when I want to do it - how I want to do it -
as often as I want to do it

the problem is with the current state of the world is that the virus doesn't care who you are

it will take its percentage regardless

a little more perhaps from group " A " than group " B " or group " C "

but it will take its cut

we are all in the same boat

but we are not all agreed on what course to steer nor are we willing to all pull together

____________

I remember a lesson my then young son learned when eating at a restaurant on a holiday:

" I love holidays "

" why ? "

" no one has to work "

" who brought you that food ? "

" who cooked it ? "

" oh "

he just realized that not all people got holidays off

_________________

not all of us can afford to stay isolated, even if we want to,

but all of us will be endangered