[Wheatfield]

I agree. But, the "experts" are now telling us that we have to expect to live with this virus in our midst until the beginning of next year -- maybe even another year from now. Understanding that we can't just shut things down completely for that long (and politics aside), we have to figure out what living with covid looks like.

Clearly it involves some level of precaution on the part of businesses -- extra sanitation, decreased numbers of people in the business at one time and maybe requiring masks. Some of it is going to be higher levels of testing and then tracking infected individuals.

I am very much a proponent of caution, but if you tell me that this isn't going away for another 9 months then my answer is that we have to figure out how to continue functioning as a society, even as it is present in our midst. If people knew that it would be gone in another three or four weeks with continued quarantine, I think they would feel better about hanging in there, but that seems unlikely. We aren't China and our citizens rebel, even at the idea of wearing a facemask to Walmart.

By blindly going down the path that has been chosen for you by a person whose motivations are self aggrandizement rather than public health and safety, you are choosing to have wasted any efforts you have made over the past few months.
You might as well have just pretended the pandemic really was a hoax.

[gifthorse]

My mother lives in a community in Florida that has a curfew from 12 to 6 am. She was out walking at 5:30 in the morning for exercise and a police officer stopped her and gave her a warning that next time she would get a 500 dollar fine. If she had a dog, it would be different, but simply going for exercise at that time is a no-no.

Of course, this really upset her and has made her angry and frustrated with the whole situation. There is no threat of jail. This isn't even a misdemeanor, but it is still upsetting for a 70 year old woman who lives in a one bedroom condo in a community where things have shut down for the time being.

I hear her frustration and still encourage her to comply as I think things will be loosened up soon enough. But you multiply her angst by a bunch of people and may you get a feeling where many communities are at right now.

There, in a nutshell, is why some of us resist these decrees. The capriciousness of many of theses edicts. If you walk with a dog, it's all good. If walking is just for exercise or relaxation, the neighbors will be dropping like flies? I go to Wallyworld and pick up a six pack? No problem. Need food? Yeah, that's good. Wander into the electronic area and a wave of death follows me? Nonessential, you say? My cell phone requires a card found in the electronics section of the store and no card means no cell phone. But some bureaucrat has waved the royal sceptre and left me without a phone! Most of these commandments don't really affect my life (I really can live without a cell phone) but when the governor of Washington state recently suggested that protesters were "bordering on insubordination", I took great offense. Governor, I'm not your subordinate! I'm the public and you are the public servant. Any would be ruler who forgets that needs to be sent to Corruption Acres where the former politicians go to retire.

[aslyfox]

just my opinion

Interesting read

assuming you don't believe the conspiracy theories

Protests spread, fueled by economic woes and Internet subcultures

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/05/01/anti-stay-home-protests/

showing up at a legislative session carrying weapons is just intimidation in my book

[Wheatfield]

There, in a nutshell, is why some of us resist these decrees. The capriciousness of many of theses edicts. If you walk with a dog, it's all good. If walking is just for exercise or relaxation, the neighbors will be dropping like flies? I go to Wallyworld and pick up a six pack? No problem. Need food? Yeah, that's good. Wander into the electronic area and a wave of death follows me? Nonessential, you say? My cell phone requires a card found in the electronics section of the store and no card means no cell phone. But some bureaucrat has waved the royal sceptre and left me without a phone! Most of these commandments don't really affect my life (I really can live without a cell phone) but when the governor of Washington state recently suggested that protesters were "bordering on insubordination", I took great offense. Governor, I'm not your subordinate! I'm the public and you are the public servant. Any would be ruler who forgets that needs to be sent to Corruption Acres where the former politicians go to retire.

Any decree from a government is going to be heavy handed and lacking in nuance. The fact is, these rules have been put in place for a reason by the people elected by the citizens to lead, and have been put in place because of people who have no common sense. If you don’t want leaders, then find someplace that doesn’t elect them.
Oh wait....

---------- Post added May 2nd, 2020 at 11:36 AM ----------

just my opinion

Interesting read

assuming you don't believe the conspiracy theories



Stay-at-home protests draw militias, white supremacists and anti-vaxxers - The Washington Post

showing up at a legislative session carrying weapons is just intimidation in my book

Precisely. If you are exercising your “rights” for the express purpose of intimidation, your cause isn’t strong enough to stand on its own, and you darn well know it. If your cause was strong enough, you wouldn’t need to be threatening people to get your way.

[aslyfox]

Kansas coronavirus update: State’s top election officer wants to enlist teens for poll work - News - The Topeka Capital-Journal - Topeka, KS

short sighted idea

I agree with this:

. . . Teresa Briggs, co-president of the League of Women Voters of Kansas, said every effort should be made to protect poll workers and encourage mail-in ballots.

Schwab’s idea for enlisting teenagers, on the other hand, is antiquated, she said. There are reports of infants, high schoolers and young adults dying from the coronavirus, and asymptomatic youths still could infect voters with the virus. . . .

those in that age group can and will become infected

and pass the virus onto family members of different ages

mail in balloting must be allowed

[Serkevan]

There, in a nutshell, is why some of us resist these decrees. The capriciousness of many of theses edicts. If you walk with a dog, it's all good. If walking is just for exercise or relaxation, the neighbors will be dropping like flies? I go to Wallyworld and pick up a six pack? No problem. Need food? Yeah, that's good. Wander into the electronic area and a wave of death follows me? Nonessential, you say? My cell phone requires a card found in the electronics section of the store and no card means no cell phone. But some bureaucrat has waved the royal sceptre and left me without a phone! Most of these commandments don't really affect my life (I really can live without a cell phone) but when the governor of Washington state recently suggested that protesters were "bordering on insubordination", I took great offense. Governor, I'm not your subordinate! I'm the public and you are the public servant. Any would be ruler who forgets that needs to be sent to Corruption Acres where the former politicians go to retire.

Most laws and rules, by definition, are capricious. That doesn't mean breaking them okay. Sure, most of these things can be refined, but there is logic behind most of them and, most importantly, they are decided to work more or less for everyone - which means that they will be optimal for no one.

And, if protesting puts other citizens at risk, it absolutely is the duty of public servants to put a stop to it. It becomes of a clash between "my freedom to protest" and "your right to be healthy".

---------- Post added 05-02-20 at 11:01 AM ----------

The fact is, these rules [...] have been put in place because of people who have no common sense.

And that's the key point. In Sweden the lockdowns and restrictions are recommendations - which people follow because "GOVERNMENT BAD" is not deeply ingrained there. In Spain they had to go from recommendation to law in 48 hours flat because too many decided to -par for the course for the country, I might add- assume that recommendations are something that happens "to other people".

[luftfluss]

mail in balloting must be allowed

Switching To A Vote-By-Mail Election Is Tougher Than It Seems | FiveThirtyEight

[aslyfox]

everyone is hopeful for a vaccine and'/or herd immunity

the problem is both are currently fantasy:

. . . The concept of herd immunity is typically described in the context of a vaccine. When enough people are vaccinated, a pathogen cannot spread easily through the population. If you are infected with measles but everyone you interact with has been vaccinated, transmission will be stopped in its tracks.

Vaccination levels must stay above a threshold that depends upon the transmissibility of the pathogen. We don’t yet know exactly how transmissible the coronavirus is, but say each person infects an average of three others. That would mean nearly two-thirds of the population would need to be immune to confer herd immunity.

In the absence of a vaccine, developing immunity to a disease like Covid-19 requires actually being infected with the coronavirus. For this to work, prior infection has to confer immunity against future infection. While hopeful, scientists are not yet certain that this is the case, nor do they know how long this immunity might last. The virus was discovered only a few months ago.

But even assuming that immunity is long-lasting, a very large number of people must be infected to reach the herd immunity threshold required. Given that current estimates suggest roughly 0.5 percent to 1 percent of all infections are fatal, that means a lot of deaths.

Perhaps most important to understand, the virus doesn’t magically disappear when the herd immunity threshold is reached. That’s not when things stop — it’s only when they start to slow down. .

Once enough immunity has been built in the population, each person will infect fewer than one other person, so a new epidemic cannot start afresh. But an epidemic that is already underway will continue to spread. If 100,000 people are infectious at the peak and they each infect 0.9 people, that’s still 90,000 new infections, and more after that. A runaway train doesn’t stop the instant the track begins to slope uphill, and a rapidly spreading virus doesn’t stop right when herd immunity is attained.

If the pandemic went uncontrolled in the United States, it could continue for months after herd immunity was reached, infecting many more millions in the process.. .

Opinion | What Coronavirus Herd Immunity Really Means - The New York Times

[aslyfox]

smart move

Pelosi, McConnell jointly decline Trump administration’s offer of rapid-response tests for Capitol Hill

In a rare joint statement, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said Saturday they are “respectfully” declining the Trump administration’s offer to deploy rapid coronavirus testing capabilities on Capitol Hill.

The administration had said it was supplying the Senate with new machines after concerns were raised about inadequate testing, with lawmakers returning to work Monday.

“There is tremendous CoronaVirus testing capacity in Washington for the Senators returning to Capital (sic) Hill on Monday. Likewise the House, which should return but isn’t because of Crazy Nancy P. The 5 minute Abbott Test will be used,” Trump tweeted. The White House uses the quick tests on anyone who meets with Trump or Vice President Pence.

But Pelosi and McConnell said Saturday that while Congress is “grateful for the Administration’s generous offer,” it “wants to keep directing resources to the front-line facilities where they can do the most good the most quickly.”

“Consistent with CDC guidelines, Congress will use the current testing protocols that the Office of the Attending Physician has put in place until these speedier technologies become more widely available,” Pelosi and McConnell’s statement said. . . . .

Coronavirus live updates: Pelosi, McConnell jointly decline Trump administration?s offer of rapid coronavirus testing for Capitol Hill - The Washington Post

[Rondec]

By blindly going down the path that has been chosen for you by a person whose motivations are self aggrandizement rather than public health and safety, you are choosing to have wasted any efforts you have made over the past few months.
You might as well have just pretended the pandemic really was a hoax.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Trump has little to do with what each individual state and community has chosen to do.

I think you missed my point, which is that if we have to deal with this virus for the next year then we have to figure out how to make normal life work again and tweak it so it is as safe as possible.

[brewmaster15]

GEORGIA...

Georgia reports 1,000 new COVID-19 cases as Kemp lifts stay-at-home order - Business Insider

This state is moving too fast.. and it doesnt just effect Georgia.... we really need to all be on the same page.

AL

[photoptimist]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Trump has little to do with what each individual state and community has chosen to do.

I think you missed my point, which is that if we have to deal with this virus for the next year then we have to figure out how to make normal life work again and tweak it so it is as safe as possible.

Aye! There's the rub!

"Normal life" requires social proximity -- people going to restaurants, parties, churches, games, shops, etc.

"Safe as possible" requires social distance -- people avoiding restaurants, parties, churches, games, shops, etc.

It's a major impasse!

The only "tweak" that can give most people a normal life without digging hundreds of thousands or millions of graves is intensive testing and compliance with contact tracing. That lets more than 95% of the population have a safe, normal life while requiring only 5% or less to stay home and self quarantine for a few weeks. Of course, there's two YUGE problems with tests-and-trace: 1) a significant fraction of the US population that would consider test-and-trace to be not a normal life; 2) the person in charge of testing has consistently underfunded the effort while consistently lying about the extensiveness of the program.

The core challenge with COVID-19 is that it truly knows if people are naughty or nice when it comes to compliance with social distancing, disinfection, compliance, quarantines, etc. The virus is entirely immune to bluster and the rationalizations people use to cheat.

[rawr]

IMHO, months ago, governments in USA, Italy, France, UK, Australia etc should have just issued every household a box of 20 face-masks, plus a box of 100 disposable gloves, and issued instructions that everyone must use at least the face-mask when going out shopping or to mass events, use gloves when handling shared surfaces, wash hands regularly etc. Total cost per household - less than $20. Much less disruption to business and the economy.

Social-isolation not as necessary, as mask and gloves achieve the same thing. Probably not workable for restaurants and bars, of course, but good for most else.

[aslyfox]

GEORGIA...

Georgia reports 1,000 new COVID-19 cases as Kemp lifts stay-at-home order - Business Insider

This state is moving too fast.. and it doesnt just effect Georgia.... we really need to all be on the same page.

AL

can some one help me out

the first opening of the restrictions was Thursday isn't that correct. in Georgia if my memory is correct

there is a known incubation time between exposure to the virus and signs of infection - 14 days as I understand it

so how is can this be accurate ?

. . A White House economic adviser said Saturday a fourth federal spending package to address massive economic losses caused by the coronavirus pandemic might not be necessary.

Speaking on Fox News Saturday, Kevin Hassett said, “Right now, because there has been good news really that the opening-up is starting to happen faster than we expected — it appears to be doing so safely — then there is a chance that we won’t really need a phase four.”

Coronavirus live updates: Pelosi, McConnell jointly decline Trump administration?s offer of rapid coronavirus testing for Capitol Hill - The Washington Post

another child like lie, a lie easily disproved

[swanlefitte]

there is a known incubation time between exposure to the virus and signs of infection - 14 days as I understand it

If i remember correctly the average mean is 5 days with 1% longer than 14 days.
Still to early to know.