[aslyfox]

we have the officer pushed into the water after advising the group of teenagers they were in violation of the guidelines

now this:

A Family Dollar store security guard was fatally shot in Flint, Mich., on Friday after telling a customer her child had to wear a mask to enter the store, the county prosecutor’s office said.

An argument began when the security guard, Calvin Munerlyn, 43, told Sharmel Lashe Teague, 45, that customers needed to wear masks in the store, Genesee County Prosecutor David Leyton said at a Monday news conference. She yelled at him, spit on him and drove off, Leyton said. About 20 minutes later, her car returned to the store, and her husband and son, Larry Edward Teague, 44, and Ramonyea Travon Bishop, 23, stepped out and confronted Munerlyn, according to investigators who spoke to witnesses in the store and reviewed surveillance video. Bishop pulled out a gun and shot Munerlyn, Leyton said.

Leyton said Munerlyn was doing his job, protecting others and enforcing a statewide executive order. In Michigan, people are required to wear face coverings in businesses. Stores can refuse service to anyone who isn’t wearing a mask. . . ,

Family Dollar’s website says store employees may wear face coverings, but there’s no requirement listed for customers. Family Dollar didn’t immediately respond to requests for comment..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/04/security-guards-death-might...-without-mask/


if the facts turn out to be as reported, they should be charged and face a jury and should they be convicted, I hope the maximum appropriate sentence is imposed.

whether store requires customers to wear a mask or not, shooting the employee cannot be excused.

and the State has the requirement

[timb64]

Police investigate shooting over a face mask in Michigan store - The Washington Post


if the facts turn out to be as reported, they should be charged and face a jury and should they be convicted, I hope the maximum appropriate sentence is imposed.

whether the child had to wear a mask or not, shooting the employee cannot be excused.

This is CV news?

In the words of Rush... “plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose“

[aslyfox]

This is CV news?

In the words of Rush... “plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose“

yes in my opinion it fits with the discussion of how folks are reacting to the social distancing and other guidelines

mask or no mask

protest or not

armed protest

but if you don't think so

that is your opinion

which is fine

[timb64]

yes in my opinion it fits with the discussion of how folks are reacting to the social distancing and other guidelines

mask or no mask

protest or not

armed protest

but if you don't think so

that is your opinion

which is fine

I wasn’t criticising Allen,it just seems to me, that although the pretext was mask wearing(or lack thereof) this story could have appeared at any time.Or to put it another way.......same ****, different day

Hm. What is your view then?
a) Do you believe the restrictions should all be lifted (to be broadly treated "like a normal flu") and just accept whoever of your fellow citizens dies, dies?
b) Is there any volume of deaths (say in the USA) from which onwards you'd consider more restrictions fair?


It sounds like you propose the answers a) "yes" and b) "no".

No, and no.

The fact that I assert that the organisms are similar has nothing to do with any similarity or dissimilarity of the conditions in which they arose. But what their similarity tells us is that the initial outbreak will be followed by multiple "surges" as the population as a whole is reduced by the number of susceptible people. Moreover, we'll be dealing with this annually for probably hundreds of years. In a hundred years, this thing will just be another instance of influenza to us (or whatever's left of us). Also, it's a wild organism; it's everywhere already, and everybody's going to be exposed to it. There is absolutely no way to be "safe". We're all going for the risk, and you don't even get a choice in the matter, how you respond to it is a matter of your own personal genetics and condition. The only reason the two strains are different in effect is that people don't have living memory of the history of influenza, since that first hit a hundred years ago. In thirty years, they will probably be identical in effect and everyone will have forgotten about today's panic.

As the guys in the video stated, the initial restrictions made sense when we didn't know anything, particularly, I would add, because it did limit the demand for medical services and presumably made it possible for some folks to survive who wouldn't have if they couldn't obtain the services they needed. From that point forward, it was a really good idea that governors should issue "orders" strongly suggesting that people refrain from all the things that encourage the transmission of the virus. But if a bunch of people want to go to church and be together in close quarters knowing the risk and taking it voluntarily, that's their right, and no governmental authority in the U.S. has the power to lawfully restrict that right. So whether the current restrictions should be lifted isn't "yes", and therefore I said, "no". But in places like Maryland where people are being arrested for standing too close together, well, it seems to me that the fascists are already in control there.

The restrictions can only be fair if they allow people to make up their own minds about what they're going to do themselves. And there really is no issue about what they might do to others, since anyone who doesn't want to be close to someone else doesn't have to be. And this thing about wearing masks is a red herring, I think, something designed to make people think something's being done; but they're mostly ineffective at best and further aids to transmission at worst. I guess that less than one percent of the people I've seen with masks on are wearing them properly, and the same effect could be achieved by the use of handkerchiefs to catch the sneezes and coughs.

The number of deaths is going to be whatever it is. We like to think we control nature in our arrogance, but wisdom consists of living in accord with the way the Universe works, because it can't be controlled. The best we can do is have influence and we only have that by our ability to exercise wisdom, self-control, and self-discipline. The restrictions have no bearing on whether or not people can be kept alive at this point, since, as I've said before, we will all be exposed to it sooner or later - chances are, most of us already have been exposed to it. But we're like a herd of cattle on an old episode of "Rawhide" - some jerk waves his arms and screams at the cattle, and, terrorized, the panic-stricken cattle run up the chute into the slaughterhouse. I just wish the jerks would stop waving and flapping, because the only purpose of the panic is to get the cattle to act in a way that is contrary to their interests.

we have the officer pushed into the water after advising the group of teenagers they were in violation of the guidelines

now this:


Police investigate shooting over a face mask in Michigan store - The Washington Post


if the facts turn out to be as reported, they should be charged and face a jury and should they be convicted, I hope the maximum appropriate sentence is imposed.

whether store requires customers to wear a mask or not, shooting the employee cannot be excused.

and the State has the requirement

What's funny about all this mask business where I live is that it is a felony to wear a mask in public, good for five years in the penitentiary. The governor could lawfully sign an order waiving the felony to allow people to wear masks in the emergency situation, but despite repeated requests, he refuses to do so. This is Northam, the "blackface" governor, whose position was purchased for him by Michael Bloomberg because of his stance on "gun control". A pediatrician, himself, he's a big proponent of "live birth abortions". You'd think a doctor would know that it would be a good idea to allow people who want to do so to wear masks in public.

[luftfluss]

This is CV news?

In the words of Rush... “plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose“

I guess it all depends on the circumstances, eh?

---

Last edited by luftfluss; 05-04-2020 at 01:51 PM.

[brewmaster15]

Ive asked this before at an earlier point in this thread but thought I would ask it again at this point. Do any of you here have family or friends that have tested positive? How are they doing? Do you know anyone outside family and friends personally that has it? Have you been tested?what was that experience like where you are?
AL

[mkgd1]

Short term measures to cope with a pandemic are not an attack on your fundamental constitutional freedoms, in the same way that short term measures introduced in wartime are not attacks on those freedoms. Your constitution is designed to allow for such circumstances, and it includes carefully drafted legal protections to make sure that such short term measures are not abused.

My country's constitution also incorporates such protections, and right now I'm glad that it's an unwritten constitution. That makes it a lot harder for people to try to twist the wording around to suit their own position.

That also gives your government to do pretty much what they feel like doing. Don't worry about us too much our democracy is very rowdy but we will be fine. Even with all the loud criticism of the way things are being handled here, the death rate per capita in the usa is approx. 1/2 that of UK and projected to end up being 2/3 when this all is over. I hope all these projections err on the high side.

[Parallax]

Or to put it another way.......same ****, different day

That describes some of the threads on PF.

[swanlefitte]

The restrictions have no bearing on whether or not people can be kept alive at this point, since, as I've said before, we will all be exposed to it sooner or later - chances are, most of us already have been exposed to it. .

Would you open your borders if you were New Zealand?

[Serkevan]

Ive asked this before at an earlier point in this thread but thought I would ask it again at this point. Do any of you here have family or friends that have tested positive? How are they doing? Do you know anyone outside family and friends personally that has it? Have you been tested?what was that experience like where you are?
AL

Yes, three friends. All of them young; two felt sick as dogs for more than a week (high fever, breathing was painful, terrible coughs), the other just had loss of smell.

---------- Post added 05-04-20 at 03:29 PM ----------

The number of deaths is going to be whatever it is. We like to think we control nature in our arrogance, but wisdom consists of living in accord with the way the Universe works, because it can't be controlled. The best we can do is have influence and we only have that by our ability to exercise wisdom, self-control, and self-discipline. The restrictions have no bearing on whether or not people can be kept alive at this point, since, as I've said before, we will all be exposed to it sooner or later - chances are, most of us already have been exposed to it. But we're like a herd of cattle on an old episode of "Rawhide" - some jerk waves his arms and screams at the cattle, and, terrorized, the panic-stricken cattle run up the chute into the slaughterhouse. I just wish the jerks would stop waving and flapping, because the only purpose of the panic is to get the cattle to act in a way that is contrary to their interests.

Yeah, no. The restrictions keep people alive by virtue of not having an overwhelmed healthcare system. To say that it's all the equivalent of throwing up our hands in the air and saying "whatever" flies in the face of reality.

[luftfluss]

Ive asked this before at an earlier point in this thread but thought I would ask it again at this point. Do any of you here have family or friends that have tested positive? How are they doing? Do you know anyone outside family and friends personally that has it? Have you been tested?what was that experience like where you are?
AL

I don't know anyone who has it, but my mother has 4 unidentified co-workers who tested positive.

[TedH42]

Ive asked this before at an earlier point in this thread but thought I would ask it again at this point. Do any of you here have family or friends that have tested positive? How are they doing? Do you know anyone outside family and friends personally that has it? Have you been tested?what was that experience like where you are?
AL

A cousin of mine in assisted living. She's 94 (I'm 20+ years younger, although she is a true cousin), and has no symptoms yet (tested 2 days ago), but still not a good situation. Her daughter has been keeping us updated, and is very worried. Me too.

[photoptimist]

No, and no.

The fact that I assert that the organisms are similar has nothing to do with any similarity or dissimilarity of the conditions in which they arose. But what their similarity tells us is that the initial outbreak will be followed by multiple "surges" as the population as a whole is reduced by the number of susceptible people. Moreover, we'll be dealing with this annually for probably hundreds of years. In a hundred years, this thing will just be another instance of influenza to us (or whatever's left of us). Also, it's a wild organism; it's everywhere already, and everybody's going to be exposed to it. There is absolutely no way to be "safe". We're all going for the risk, and you don't even get a choice in the matter, how you respond to it is a matter of your own personal genetics and condition. The only reason the two strains are different in effect is that people don't have living memory of the history of influenza, since that first hit a hundred years ago. In thirty years, they will probably be identical in effect and everyone will have forgotten about today's panic..

It is fair to say that influenza and COVID-19 are qualitatively similar in being viruses that attack the respiratory system. It's not fair to say they are quantitatively similar. COVID-19 is more infectious, more lethal, and more people are susceptible to to it.

But if a bunch of people want to go to church and be together in close quarters knowing the risk and taking it voluntarily, that's their right, and no governmental authority in the U.S. has the power to lawfully restrict that right.

Maybe. But then it would be within the rights of everyone else to quarantine the dangerous idiots who choose to spread the virus amongst themselves.

We may agree that government cannot infringe on the rights of individuals to harm themselves, but government can surely regulate a person's right to harm others.

And there really is no issue about what they might do to others, since anyone who doesn't want to be close to someone else doesn't have to be.

That's only true if idiot congregators are required to wear a tattoo or arm band so that employers, stores, government offices, and private individuals can prevent them from coming close or entering buildings containing those who want to avoid infections.

The number of deaths is going to be whatever it is.

Your statement is false on three levels.

First, it assumes the death toll is the same whether we flatten the curve or not. This is very untrue because unfettered spread of COVID-19 can readily overwhelm the healthcare system and lead to a lot of extra deaths both among COVID victims and among anyone else needing hospitalization. Slowing the spread does save lives even if everyone ultimately catches it. (Note: recessions don't kill people. In fact, economic downturns reduce the overall death rate: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00210-0 )

Second, it assumes that there is zero chance of finding any better treatments, drugs, or vaccines. This is likely untrue (no guarantees!) because of the numerous parallel efforts to find medical solutions. The slower the spread, the greater the percentage of people will be benefit from improved treatments, drugs, or vaccines in the future.

Third, it assumes that actually controlling the disease really is impossible. This seems to be utterly false given that some countries have shown remarkable effectiveness at halting the spread. Maybe the US government is too incompetent to do it, but one can hope that's not true.