[photoptimist]

The Black Death was much more deadly that covid-19. Most people today simply have no experience with death, even on as small a scale as covid-19. I have experienced the death of a child. That is rare today. Yet only 100 years ago it was the norm.


The today person seems to think that everything that is happening to them is a first in human history. Today we think that no one has ever had to take care of elderly parents before while holding down a job and raising their own children. That is the norm of human history. We are the rarity. Quite frankly as a civilization we are pretty dumb. Because of this we are going to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again. There will be no "new normal" after all this is over.

Yes, the greatest weakness of humanity is its failure to learn from history thereby being doomed to repeat it.

However, the greatest strength of humanity is its willingness to ignore history thereby being able to transcend it.

We'd still be stuck in the stone age if we slavishly avoided anything that had failed in the past and only repeated that which worked before.

The challenge is to mine history for knowledge with a keen understanding of the limits of that historical knowledge. In particular, the anecdotal nature of history makes it an especially poor source of evidence but a rich source of hypothesis. From there it's a matter of experimentation bounded by risk management and ethics.

[Dartmoor Dave]

^^^^^^^
Nice one. Demolishing both Hegel and Marx within the space of a single forum post.

[aslyfox]

Here in Ye Olde England the Black Death also played a major role in ending the feudal system. Workers were suddenly in short supply, so feudal lords were forced to offer better wages and conditions to entice people to go and work for them. Workers suddenly found that they had an opportunity to go wherever the pay was better, and they got this crazy idea that they might actually be human beings who were entitled to demand some free rights. Of course the government of the time did everything it could to reduce them back to serfdom, but by then it was too late.

" how are you going to keep 'em down on the farm, after they seen Paree "

You Tube

You Tube

[photoptimist]

^^^^^^^
Nice one. Demolishing both Hegel and Marx within the space of a single forum post.

Thanks! (Somebody has to do it! )

[Rondec]

The Black Death was much more deadly that covid-19. Most people today simply have no experience with death, even on as small a scale as covid-19. I have experienced the death of a child. That is rare today. Yet only 100 years ago it was the norm.


The today person seems to think that everything that is happening to them is a first in human history. Today we think that no one has ever had to take care of elderly parents before while holding down a job and raising their own children. That is the norm of human history. We are the rarity. Quite frankly as a civilization we are pretty dumb. Because of this we are going to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again. There will be no "new normal" after all this is over.

I think the thing is that there are a lot of things we can do to fight new diseases -- vaccines and medications and supportive care come to mind -- that couldn't be done in the past. The thing is that novel treatments for new diseases take time to develop and so we are stalling till those things can be manufactured on a large enough scale to help with COVID.

The point isn't really to compare this to Spanish Flu or the Antonine Plagues or Black Death, but more to say that we are here today, how can we muster the tools available to us to develop treatments for this.

We do this all of the time. Treatments for cancers have come a long way and we don't stop today and say that things are better than in the past so we'll just stop here.

[Dartmoor Dave]

Thanks! (Somebody has to do it! )

Your final paragraph was as good a description as I've ever seen of an open society that responds to challenges on the basis of evidence rather than ideology.

[RoxnDox]

Your final paragraph was as good a description as I've ever seen of an open society that responds to challenges on the basis of evidence rather than ideology.

Sure would be nice to find one that lives up to that description...

[Serkevan]

Sure would be nice to find one that lives up to that description...

Even if challenges are met with evidence, the goals of certain parts of society will be in direct opposition to others; it's perfectible possible for an evidence-based method to be utterly reprehensible from a morality standpoint, regardless of ideology.
As long as the economy is considered an overlord (or a goal itself) instead of a tool, as long as being selfish with your power is legitimized, such a society might be possible but I'm afraid it will be a dystopia. The intended evidence-based society will be a pipe dream I'm afraid.

[aslyfox]

well

it looks like United Kingdoms may take a hit on tourism

Britain says almost all travelers arriving in U.K. must self-quarantine for 14 days starting June 8

LONDON — British Home Secretary Priti Patel unveiled the government’s new travel quarantine strategy on Friday, warning that almost all arrivals to the United Kingdom — including citizens returning home — must self-isolate for 14 days and face spot checks by police, facing high fines and possible expulsion for violations.

The new measures will begin June 8. Those who fly into Britain will have to tell authorities the address where they intend to self-isolate, give officials their contact details and download a tracking app designed by the National Health Service that is still in development.

The new quarantine measures will be among the most strict in Europe and effectively dash summer travel plans in the short term. Earlier, there was speculation that travelers would be able to move more easily between France and Britain, but there was no exception for France.

The government said that there would be exceptions for some — airplane pilots, truck drivers, medical workers and seasonal farmhands. Visitors from Ireland would also be exempt.

If travelers do not have a hotel or home address at which to quarantine, they will be sent to “facilities arranged by the government” and will be billed for the stay there. . . .

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/22/coronavirus-update-us/

[krgroothuis]

Sometimes Coronavirus gives new inspiration: Read this article of the work of a good friend of mine. Striking Twilight Portraits Capture the Loneliness of Lockdown

Although we discovered in the experiments with night shots made with his Canon EOS 5DS R and made with my Pentax K-1 that the Canon sensors are not ISO INVARIANT. But the Pentax K-1 is very ISO INVARIANT.

That means that when I under-exposed a lot with my K-1 , there was no problem to push for example 3 stops. No more extreme noise occurs. With his Canon sensor more noise comes with the same actions.. Also the same sensor used in A Nikon gives also more noise . So the engineering and software of the Pentax K-1 is extreme good !

[TedH42]

Ive asked this before at an earlier point in this thread but thought I would ask it again at this point. Do any of you here have family or friends that have tested positive? How are they doing? Do you know anyone outside family and friends personally that has it? Have you been tested?what was that experience like where you are?
AL

A cousin of mine in assisted living. She's 94 (I'm 20+ years younger, although she is a true cousin), and has no symptoms yet (tested 2 days ago), but still not a good situation. Her daughter has been keeping us updated, and is very worried. Me too.

New info on my cousin: She's twice tested NEGATIVE, a week apart, and is being moved to the "recovering" section of her assisted living facility. Our family grows 'em tough.

Or was it a false positive to start with? All 15 others in her "positive" wing, where she had been moved, tested NEGATIVE in the 2 rounds of testing. Suspicious - gives me such a warm feeling about the testing.

[Dartmoor Dave]

Even if challenges are met with evidence, the goals of certain parts of society will be in direct opposition to others; it's perfectible possible for an evidence-based method to be utterly reprehensible from a morality standpoint, regardless of ideology.
As long as the economy is considered an overlord (or a goal itself) instead of a tool, as long as being selfish with your power is legitimized, such a society might be possible but I'm afraid it will be a dystopia. The intended evidence-based society will be a pipe dream I'm afraid.

Just want to make clear that my own notion of an evidence-based society is NOT utilitarianism, and absolutely not one that pririoritises the economy above more meaningful measures of a good life. Mine's a sort of wishy-washy notion of communities agreeing on what they think a good life is, then following evidence based approaches to achieve that. I'm just an old fat hippy basically.

[Serkevan]

Just want to make clear that my own notion of an evidence-based society is NOT utilitarianism, and absolutely not one that pririoritises the economy above more meaningful measures of a good life. Mine's a sort of wishy-washy notion of communities agreeing on what they think a good life is, then following evidence based approaches to achieve that. I'm just an old fat hippy basically.

I figured, which is why I mentioned the "intented" part . It's more of a "careful what you wish for, there are a lot of monkey paws around".

[Parallax]

my own notion of an evidence-based society is NOT utilitarianism, and absolutely not one that pririoritises the economy above more meaningful measures of a good life.

I agree with the sentiment but can't resist a bit of levity:

"Money can't buy everything, but let's not get confused.
The things that money cannot buy are very seldom used."
~Nipsey Russell

[gaweidert]

Even if challenges are met with evidence, the goals of certain parts of society will be in direct opposition to others; it's perfectible possible for an evidence-based method to be utterly reprehensible from a morality standpoint, regardless of ideology.
As long as the economy is considered an overlord (or a goal itself) instead of a tool, as long as being selfish with your power is legitimized, such a society might be possible but I'm afraid it will be a dystopia. The intended evidence-based society will be a pipe dream I'm afraid.

Without an economy there are no taxes without taxes no social programs. A cash based economy is essential in the present times. The barter system is too slow and inefficient. Cash is extremely efficient. There is no way a barter system could bring enough food and services into a major metropolitan area. Like it or not the best method for economic growth is the free market system. It is not perfect, but is has been the most successful one to date. Like it or not destroying your economy is not something to be taken lightly. Hitler rose from the ashes of the destroyed economy of Germany. That is a case of something being done to punish a nation and prevent them from ever being able to wage war again igniting the greatest war in human history.


As for me, I am for opening things back up. I am also in the age group most at risk. If it comes down to my kids and grandkids being subjected to government enforced poverty, then I am more than willing to take that risk. That is not being selfish. It is certainly less risky that the state director of health issuing a order forcing nursing homes to take in COVID-19 patients, To date that has led to some 5,300 nursing home deaths. When the decision was made the effect of the virus on the elderly and morbidly sick was already well known. The governor says that there will be no investigation of that decision. "It's good to be the king". If this is an example of how a government has the best interests of the people at heart I'll take my chances with opening things back up.