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05-20-2020, 03:19 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by rogerstg Quote
You're 100% wrong, or by your calculation, 2000% wrong . It's simple math and common sense. Your comprehension of the term "hallucinating" is also lacking. It does not fit the context of this discourse.
Firstly, I never said they make 2000%. I said "why don't they try charging 200". Secondly, though you could say that my reference to "buy at 10 and sell for 100" iwas somewhat hyperbolic, I'd be willing to bet that it does occur occasionally. Would you feel better if I said "buy at 10 sell for 50"? If you'd dispute that with equal determination, I'd say you are showing signs of just the type of thing I complain about: manipulation of the public until it accepts things that were unacceptable previously or that logic dictates should not be acceptable. Businesses have learned to do this with remarkable effectiveness.

As to my use of the word "hallucinating", yeah, it's not exactly appropriate, but was an extension of the thought "you're smoking something that is warping your reality".

BTW, rogerstg wouldn't be Stager, would it?

05-20-2020, 03:21 PM - 1 Like   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by 35mmfilmfan Quote
Just found an item on auction at Ebay, which I thought of buying. Opening price was £4.00, with an option to make an offer, so I offered £7, intending to dicker until the price became exorbitant. Offer instantly rejected, with the comment 'It is worth much more than that, so I'll let the auction run'.
Update

This auction did duly run - and the item sold for £4.60, significantly less than my original offer. I did not bid, but found another example with free postage, which I won for £8.50 - less than I would have had to pay had my offer been accepted ! The anticipated 'auction fever' did not, apparently, materialise.
05-21-2020, 05:19 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
Did you read the OP? Half of lowest sold price on eBay is half of an item sold for parts.
You might want to re-read the OP. It's TonyT that IMAGINED that an offer COULD BE based on an item sold for parts NOT the shop owner. Imagining the worse case scenario is not reality and usually counterproductive. He should have got a real price and could discuss it from there, including discussing if the shop owner was referencing an item representative of his lens; working or not, fungus, etc. By arguing IMAGINED scenarios, he lost the opportunity to discuss reality and to make a deal.

QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
Even if it's the lowest for a functioning lens, it's statistically going to be a lens that got sold on opening bid (so stupidly low)
Please show me these statistics because that has not been my experience, and I've bought a number of lenses and other items on eBay. eBay's search of sold items is not that robust and does not go far back. For example, I've been looking for a good deal Pentax-D FA 50mm F2.8 Macro. My search of sold items results in 3 hits ranging from $190 to $435. Sometimes there will be a rough copy or parts lens among the items I'm searching, but not usually.

QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
which is easily ten times lower than the going rate for most items
Do you know the difference between a multiple of something and a fraction? For example, ten time less than 100 is -900. One tenth of 100 is 10. They are not the same.

QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
I mean, it's clear you are on the pawn broker's side
Again, you're simply imagining something or convinced that you can read minds. I'm on the side of reality, not imagined possibilities. I understand that this is the internet and some people like to get their panties in a twist, but making things up to bash others for self aggrandizement goes too far. (not referring to you Serkevan, just to some of the more asinine assertions in this thread).
05-21-2020, 05:53 AM - 1 Like   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by rogerstg Quote
You might want to re-read the OP. It's TonyT that IMAGINED that an offer COULD BE based on an item sold for parts NOT the shop owner. Imagining the worse case scenario is not reality and usually counterproductive. He should have got a real price and could discuss it from there, including discussing if the shop owner was referencing an item representative of his lens; working or not, fungus, etc. By arguing IMAGINED scenarios, he lost the opportunity to discuss reality and to make a deal.

Please show me these statistics because that has not been my experience, and I've bought a number of lenses and other items on eBay. eBay's search of sold items is not that robust and does not go far back. For example, I've been looking for a good deal Pentax-D FA 50mm F2.8 Macro. My search of sold items results in 3 hits ranging from $190 to $435. Sometimes there will be a rough copy or parts lens among the items I'm searching, but not usually.

Do you know the difference between a multiple of something and a fraction? For example, ten time less than 100 is -900. One tenth of 100 is 10. They are not the same.

Again, you're simply imagining something or convinced that you can read minds. I'm on the side of reality, not imagined possibilities. I understand that this is the internet and some people like to get their panties in a twist, but making things up to bash others for self aggrandizement goes too far. (not referring to you Serkevan, just to some of the more asinine assertions in this thread).
"He explained to me that what he does is take the lowest sold price and then cut it in half and that is what he will offer for the item". That's exactly what it said. The lowest sold price if you don't add additional filters will be of either a for-parts or well-used item in less than pristine condition. In my experience with Ebay the going rate is typically ~5 times higher than the lowest you can find for a functioning item - of course, as you said, it depends on the time that you check. Today, a Pentax-M 50/1.7 shows as "sold" (not for parts) on my side of EBay in a range of 6€ to 55€ (not counting delivery). Most of them are clustered around ~40€ so let's take that. How much is 3 compared to 40?
I've also been to pawn shops and checked how much they offered (not for lenses, but still). The maximum you can hope for is 10-20% of what they are selling similar items for in the store. You aren't getting half, ever. And, again, I'm talking about 500-1000% revenue increases, I know the profit for the pawn shop probably won't be more than 100%.

And yes, I'm fully aware that a tenth is not ten times less - it was a slip of the tongue and you understood perfectly anyway .

EDIT: about the statistics, every time I've sold or bought an item on Ebay (so n=about 40) I've researched the "sold items" list for a couple weeks. For many items there wasn't a lot of info (one item sold here or there at completely random prices) but for the ~10 or so that are more common the differences were very stark. The lowest variation was on a Canon 6D about a year ago. Used models were selling, depending on wear, from 300 to 800€, roughly. Average price of 600, which is a factor of two over the lowest - although I do remember only a couple items being under 450 and the 300€ body was very banged up from the description. The "basic" Pentax-M primes (28/50/135) sell for about 40-50 bucks each on average but it's trivial to get them for 10 or less (I know because I did). So on and so forth.

By the way, the local pawn shop has a Pentacon Orestegor (the 200/4 15-blade M42 lens) for 50€, I got mine a month ago for 12 (delivery included) on Ebay. And it's in better condition

EDIT 2: Another store here has a 18-55 kit lens (the oldest version) for 99€ used. I count 8 sold under 18€ on Ebay (with half actually being about 10€).


Last edited by Serkevan; 05-21-2020 at 06:10 AM.
05-21-2020, 06:21 AM - 3 Likes   #50
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At the end of the day it’s just buying and selling stuff.A gun’s not being held to either parties’ head and if you don’t like the numbers/fractions/decimals just walk away
05-21-2020, 06:34 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by timb64 Quote
At the end of the day it’s just buying and selling stuff.A gun’s not being held to either parties’ head and if you don’t like the numbers/fractions/decimals just walk away
Absolutely! And since I never like the numbers offered I always walk away

Although my Tamron 90/2.5 does come from a pawn shop - it was ridiculously cheap. When buying there might be good offers, for selling not really.
05-21-2020, 07:14 AM - 2 Likes   #52
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It is useful to remember that no thing has inherent value. People place value on a thing. The object arrives without inherent value. The legal and philosophical definition of a fair price is what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller. No one should take offense at an offer from either a buyer or seller.

05-21-2020, 07:15 AM   #53
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Don't forget, a reseller is also placing a value on both convenience and time as part of the equation, and so is the seller.
If the highest value is having money in one's pocket, versus the time and effort it would take one to get the best possible value for the offered item, then a pawn shop is possibly the best way to sell the item. If not, then eBay, or a reseller specializing in that item might be a better way to go to get a better value for the item, but it will take more time to complete the transaction, which can be less convenient.
05-21-2020, 04:59 PM   #54
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05-22-2020, 02:51 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
"He explained to me that what he does is take the lowest sold price and then cut it in half and that is what he will offer for the item". That's exactly what it said. The lowest sold price if you don't add additional filters will be of either a for-parts or well-used item in less than pristine condition. In my experience with Ebay the going rate is typically ~5 times higher than the lowest you can find for a functioning item - of course, as you said, it depends on the time that you check. Today, a Pentax-M 50/1.7 shows as "sold" (not for parts) on my side of EBay in a range of 6€ to 55€ (not counting delivery). Most of them are clustered around ~40€ so let's take that. How much is 3 compared to 40?
I've also been to pawn shops and checked how much they offered (not for lenses, but still). The maximum you can hope for is 10-20% of what they are selling similar items for in the store. You aren't getting half, ever. And, again, I'm talking about 500-1000% revenue increases, I know the profit for the pawn shop probably won't be more than 100%.

And yes, I'm fully aware that a tenth is not ten times less - it was a slip of the tongue and you understood perfectly anyway .

EDIT: about the statistics, every time I've sold or bought an item on Ebay (so n=about 40) I've researched the "sold items" list for a couple weeks. For many items there wasn't a lot of info (one item sold here or there at completely random prices) but for the ~10 or so that are more common the differences were very stark. The lowest variation was on a Canon 6D about a year ago. Used models were selling, depending on wear, from 300 to 800€, roughly. Average price of 600, which is a factor of two over the lowest - although I do remember only a couple items being under 450 and the 300€ body was very banged up from the description. The "basic" Pentax-M primes (28/50/135) sell for about 40-50 bucks each on average but it's trivial to get them for 10 or less (I know because I did). So on and so forth.

By the way, the local pawn shop has a Pentacon Orestegor (the 200/4 15-blade M42 lens) for 50€, I got mine a month ago for 12 (delivery included) on Ebay. And it's in better condition

EDIT 2: Another store here has a 18-55 kit lens (the oldest version) for 99€ used. I count 8 sold under 18€ on Ebay (with half actually being about 10€).
I guess I have a lot of sympathy for brick and mortar store owners. They have never had a really easy time of it, but now, with internet auction sites, I am sure they have a much tougher time making a go of it. I wonder how many items a day a pawn shop owner actually sells and how much profit he needs to make on those items in order to buy food for his family?

Maybe the one that Tony was dealing with was a greedy, unreasonable person, but I just feel like a lot of these shops are constantly on the edge of shutting down. It has to affect their low ball prices when they buy things and pricing when they sell them.
05-22-2020, 03:34 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I guess I have a lot of sympathy for brick and mortar store owners. They have never had a really easy time of it, but now, with internet auction sites, I am sure they have a much tougher time making a go of it. I wonder how many items a day a pawn shop owner actually sells and how much profit he needs to make on those items in order to buy food for his family?

Maybe the one that Tony was dealing with was a greedy, unreasonable person, but I just feel like a lot of these shops are constantly on the edge of shutting down. It has to affect their low ball prices when they buy things and pricing when they sell them.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that the pawn shop owners are getting rich out of their business. But it's a fact that to cover all the other expenses they have to either have a very large sales volume or they have to squeeze a lot of margin out of each item. Sometimes both, if the items aren't exactly worth a lump of money. So, while that's the only thing they can do to survive, the end result is that they are "siphoning" a huge part of the item's value (meaning the price tag that a customer ends up paying).

The problem is that in the age of the Internet and direct sales this model is inefficient because the service provided (reselling the item) doesn't really save sellers a lot of time (I've never spent more than ten minutes setting up a sale, it would take longer to just go to the pawn shop), so if you're looking to sell an item a pawn shop is generally a bad idea. And if you're looking to buy an item, a private seller has more margin to work with so it's generally cheaper to buy direct (or negotiate). Both parties are happier - with the inevitable consequence of the middle link being out of a job.


I have sympathy for the people working pawn shops, brick and mortar shops and retail in general, and I think that there is a broader commentary about the "free" market cyclically crushing entire sectors without, in many cases, giving the people involved few tools to convert into other fields (or even safety nets in the meantime), but that's far beyond the rules of the forum
05-22-2020, 04:30 PM   #57
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Greetings all,

I have been absorbing and digesting all of the responses here and I genuinely appreciate the numerous and generous perspectives. It is a given that every business has its responsibilities as far as employees, taxes, and general overhead, but my response to that is: That is their problem and not mine, in other words, it comes with the territory. To me, after all is said and done, the most important issue for any business is: "Customer Satisfaction." A business cannot exist without a good client base. For example, this same shop once had a return policy of 30 days. Then it was reduced to 14 days and currently it is at 7 days. Keep in mind that items that are offered in the showcase are not the shop's only source of revenue. It is a Pawn shop and people borrow money on the items they pawn and of course the shop makes money on the interest they charge. Then, if the loan is not paid within a specific time, the item automatically becomes the shop's property.

Again, many thanks for all of the input as it has been very interesting and educational. I am also very grateful that there were no heated and inflammatory exchanges.

Stay safe and stay healthy. Tonytee
05-22-2020, 04:45 PM - 1 Like   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tonytee Quote
Greetings all,

I have been absorbing and digesting all of the responses here and I genuinely appreciate the numerous and generous perspectives. It is a given that every business has its responsibilities as far as employees, taxes, and general overhead, but my response to that is: That is their problem and not mine, in other words, it comes with the territory. To me, after all is said and done, the most important issue for any business is: "Customer Satisfaction." A business cannot exist without a good client base. For example, this same shop once had a return policy of 30 days. Then it was reduced to 14 days and currently it is at 7 days. Keep in mind that items that are offered in the showcase are not the shop's only source of revenue. It is a Pawn shop and people borrow money on the items they pawn and of course the shop makes money on the interest they charge. Then, if the loan is not paid within a specific time, the item automatically becomes the shop's property.

Again, many thanks for all of the input as it has been very interesting and educational. I am also very grateful that there were no heated and inflammatory exchanges.

Stay safe and stay healthy. Tonytee
Tony,my friend, if you truely believe "the most important issue for any business is:"Customer Satisfaction"" I'm afraid you are being naive in the extreme.The driving force for the vast majority of businesses is,and always will be, making money for the owners/shareholders.

You stay safe too.
05-23-2020, 12:00 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by timb64 Quote
Tony,my friend, if you truely believe "the most important issue for any business is:"Customer Satisfaction"" I'm afraid you are being naive in the extreme.The driving force for the vast majority of businesses is,and always will be, making money for the owners/shareholders.

You stay safe too.

This!! To reiterate the sentiment in my original post - the shop owner uses a business model that works for him, you don't agree with it and you ended up walking out without doing business with him. That was completely your right to do so. I didn't, and still don't see why you would be, or have a right to be, offended
05-23-2020, 01:11 AM - 1 Like   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by carlb Quote
This!! To reiterate the sentiment in my original post - the shop owner uses a business model that works for him, you don't agree with it and you ended up walking out without doing business with him. That was completely your right to do so. I didn't, and still don't see why you would be, or have a right to be, offended

As mentioned earlier, I have done business with this shop prior to their relocating and felt they were very flexible in the way they conducted their business. I walked in there

with quality merchandise and willing to sell at what I thought would be a fair and satisfactory price for both parties. Well, it turned out I was wrong. I did attempt to negotiate with

the owner, however he was unwilling to bend even a little. I mean I left there on good terms, it wasn't as though I stormed out being upset. I get the impression that although I

offered this thread with the intent of being helpful to fellow members that I am somehow the villain here. Thanks again, Tony
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