[noelpolar]

I make 70% of our bread.... and use mostly a natural starter that is approaching 10 years or so old now..... once going quite robust..... once you learn some very very simple basics.... mostly all about the relationship between time and temperature. You are right about natural leven bread not being a great fit with the bread machine though.

I'd suggest looking up the stretch and fold approach to bread making.... along with some basic how to shape skills.

Can help with specific detail if interested.

Last weeks....







For many years.... I used my bread machine to mix/knead my "sour dough".... I'd take it out at about the 25 minute mark....and shape it and let it prove overnight and bake in the morning..... because you are not proofing or baking in the bread machine.... you can prepare about 1.5x the ammount of ingredients.... divide once out of bread machine and make 2 loaf equivelents.... most natural leaven loafs will take 6 to 12 ours to double in size.... temperature and ammount of leaven can be adjusted to optimise things to some extent.

For those that think normal shop bought bread is fine.... I would agree..... I also would agree that taking photos with phones is the norm these days as well.... fine for most.

As an aside..... a natural "sour dough" type culture.... with it's wild "yeasts" is really just natural leaven.... mostly it is just a slower working yeast culture..... so compared to commercial yeast.... it just works slower..... this slower proccess creates an enviroment for other things to happen to the bread that results in taste and "crumb" developement that leads to nicer breads (mostly).... to get a strong "sour dough" flavour much longer bread proving times are required (24-36 hours..... think low temperature proofing..... slow the yeast down etc)..... and different flours help.... Rye etc)..... all in all an interesting hobbie.... a bit like using old lenses etc.

As far as starter goes..... my experience is..... I keep 200 or so grams in the fridge..... half water half flour.... so in bakers percentages 100% hydration. I have left this for up to 4 weeks when going overseas and got it going again when got home.

I bake, on average 2x a week. I now mostly make my bread in the morning.... and bake it later in the day.

Night before.... I take the starter out of the fridge.... mix in quickly 100g of water, 100g of flour and leave out over night.... next moring I use 200g of starter and place rest back in fridge..... or course if I want say 400g of starter today I would have mixed 200/200 the night before.

If I've not used the starter for a few weeks.... I might add 100g of the old smelly stuff to 150/150.... leave it out of the fridge overnight to refresh and put back in the following day.

As a bakers percentage I use about 20% of starter (ie 200g of starter to 1kg of flour).... but if want a quicker proof might go 300 or more grams of starter.... worst thing that can happen is you make some nice bread crumbs.

---

Last edited by noelpolar; 05-15-2020 at 03:02 AM.

[ChristianRock]

If we opened up a flour and yeast store right now we could make a fortune! Who knew. One day we better look back at this time and laugh...remember when we drove all over town looking for....yeast!

Still sounds better than driving all over town looking for toilet paper

I think I'll be able to find some soon. I read that Fleischman's been ramping up production and have been hiring for a while now - I think it's only a matter of time before they take care of this new demand pattern.

I make 70% of our bread.... and use mostly a natural starter that is approaching 10 years or so old now..... once going quite robust..... once you learn some very very simple basics.... mostly all about the relationship between time and temperature. You are right about natural leven bread not being a great fit with the bread machine though.

I'd suggest looking up the stretch and fold approach to bread making.... along with some basic how to shape skills.

Can help with specific detail if interested.

The video I posted in the previous page teaches exactly that. It's long but I watched it almost entirely, and it's very interesting.
But it does seem time consuming compared to the two minutes it takes me to have a loaf in the bread machine...

Yet the process is so fascinating, I'd still like to try it sometime!

Last weeks....

Wow, these look great! You sir are a professional! Count me very impressed.

For many years.... I used my bread machine to mix/knead my "sour dough".... I'd take it out at about the 25 minute mark....and shape it and let it prove overnight and bake in the morning..... because you are not proofing or baking in the bread machine.... you can prepare about 1.5x the ammount of ingredients.... divide once out of bread machine and make 2 loaf equivelents.... most natural leaven loafs will take 6 to 12 ours to double in size.... temperature and ammount of leaven can be adjusted to optimise things to some extent.

For those that think normal shop bought bread is fine.... I would agree..... I also would agree that taking photos with phones is the norm these days as well.... fine for most.

As an aside..... a natural "sour dough" type culture.... with it's wild "yeasts" is really just natural leaven.... mostly it is just a slower working yeast culture..... so compared to commercial yeast.... it just works slower..... this slower proccess creates an enviroment for other things to happen to the bread that results in taste and "crumb" developement that leads to nicer breads (mostly).... to get a strong "sour dough" flavour much longer bread proving times are required (24-36 hours..... think low temperature proofing..... slow the yeast down etc)..... and different flours help.... Rye etc)..... all in all an interesting hobbie.... a bit like using old lenses etc.

As far as starter goes..... my experience is..... I keep 200 or so grams in the fridge..... half water half flour.... so in bakers percentages 100% hydration. I have left this for up to 4 weeks when going overseas and got it going again when got home.

I bake, on average 2x a week. I now mostly make my bread in the morning.... and bake it later in the day.

Night before.... I take the starter out of the fridge.... mix in quickly 100g of water, 100g of flour and leave out over night.... next moring I use 200g of starter and place rest back in fridge..... or course if I want say 400g of starter today I would have mixed 200/200 the night before.

If I've not used the starter for a few weeks.... I might add 100g of the old smelly stuff to 150/150.... leave it out of the fridge overnight to refresh and put back in the following day.

As a bakers percentage I use about 20% of starter (ie 200g of starter to 1kg of flour).... but if want a quicker proof might go 300 or more grams of starter.... worst thing that can happen is you make some nice bread crumbs.

It sounds like you have this thing down pat, Noel! Great stuff. This last bit about baker's percentage, was a question I had myself and I haven't really seen much talk about it in the videos I've watched and the articles I've read, but it was one of the first questions I've had - how much do I really need. Thanks! The time you leave it raising is also very good information. I'm still wondering about the whole peak starter/discard starter (past peak) thing, but I guess it will vary from place to place because of what you said - it's all about controlling temperature. And here in Georgia we can have several seasons in one day, so God knows how long it might take me to get the hang of this

[noelpolar]

and here in Georgia we can have several seasons in one day, so God knows how long it might take me to get the hang of this

Fwiw.... temperature varies a lot here also..... I've now converted a largish ice box (120 litre) I had lying around to proove the dough in... a 20w halogen globe hooked up to a cheap ebay thermostat allows me to set temperature between 20 and 30 degress C. If the bread prooves to quickly you can put it in the fridge to slow things down.... say whilst oven is heating etc.

As far as starter peaking goes.... for home made bread where one might accept a reasonably largish variation in how bread might present.... I don't find it matters much... as long as the starter has aerated a bit and looks good.... of course if one is making bread that needs to be perfect using low gluten flours etc things might be more criticle.

One thing of note.... in my case.... the biggest hurdle I've found in bread making was transitioning from using packaged "bread mixes" to using basic flours..... and getting great bread. More technique is needed when using straight flour.... lots of new words/techniques...... delayed fermentation, autolyse, bigas etc etc.

This guys youtube channel is pretty good...

Youtu.be

Youtu.be

(he could probally be a pentaxian)

[ChristianRock]

Fwiw.... temperature varies a lot here also..... I've now converted a largish ice box (120 litre) I had lying around to proove the dough in... a 20w halogen globe hooked up to a cheap ebay thermostat allows me to set temperature between 20 and 30 degress C. If the bread prooves to quickly you can put it in the fridge to slow things down.... say whilst oven is heating etc.

As far as starter peaking goes.... for home made bread where one might accept a reasonably largish variation in how bread might present.... I don't find it matters much... as long as the starter has aerated a bit and looks good.... of course if one is making bread that needs to be perfect using low gluten flours etc things might be more criticle.

One thing of note.... in my case.... the biggest hurdle I've found in bread making was transitioning from using packaged "bread mixes" to using basic flours..... and getting great bread. More technique is needed when using straight flour.... lots of new words/techniques...... delayed fermentation, autolyse, bigas etc etc.

Thanks Noel... that is all good information

I had to look up bread mixes - I see pancake mixes a lot at the grocery store, but I wasn't familiar with bread mixes! I've always made bread from scratch... including recently making the german Streuselkuchen that mom taught me as a kid (with store bought dry yeast... that's what she always used...)

Question (not just to you but to anyone who might know...) - I see that it's common to sell dry flakes of decades and centuries-old sourdough starter flakes... would this turn out any different than if I just made a starter from scratch according to online recipes to do this? Are these fungi actually still alive? Would they be different fungi than if I started them here in Georgia? Is this real, or snake oil?

[noelpolar]

Thanks Noel... that is all good information

I see that it's common to sell dry flakes of decades and centuries-old sourdough starter flakes... would this turn out any different than if I just made a starter from scratch according to online recipes to do this? Are these fungi actually still alive? Would they be different fungi than if I started them here in Georgia? Is this real, or snake oil?

There is a fair ammount of ""hot air" around regarding starters.... and even starters made within regions etc.... generally it is pretty simple.... just like it was a 1,000 years ago......when a starter is made.... you are basically growing a relatively uncontrolled group of "natural" yeasts and other microbes. Those that successfully colonise come from the materials you use (ie flour) and possibly also from the air (enviroment).... so I guess... all starters are somewhat unique. One can shape things in a specific way to some extent.... based on the general ingredients used for the starter (flour, pinapple juice etc). I just used filtered water and organic unbleached bakers flour.

Off course, one batch of starter you could rub your fingers between your toes before hand mixing the initial batch.... maybe save that one for the inlaws.

[ChristianRock]

Off course, one batch of starter you could rub your fingers between your toes before hand mixing the initial batch.... maybe save that one for the inlaws.

Got a chuckle out of me

So nay on buying an old starter? An Italian one will change its italian leven fungi for the Georgia ones with time?

[noelpolar]

So nay on buying an old starter? An Italian one will change its italian leven fungi for the Georgia ones with time?

Why not buy one and have a go.....

Over time.... think of it just like a family tree..... mixed marriages etc.....but you may not notice much change..... as I guess it's just a little bit at a time.... a bit like when relatives come over and notice a change from last year in how your kids have grown.

Most change would be because of the flour more so then your geography.... but then I say my "Goolwa Beach starter"..... not Cummins Mill Flour starter.

[ChristianRock]

Well if anyone needs a laugh, I found this: Sourdoh

Lots of people in that subreddit about failed sourdoughs! I guess you have to make a lot of mistakes before you get one right... my favorite one is "after a whole day of stretching and folding... two frisbees!"