[barondla]

So you think they should have encouraged people to buy up all the PPE they could get their hands on so that the front line health care workers would have been even less protected?
Listen to the rational behind it and it might make some sense to you.
The people who don't trust the science are the same ones who were manipulated by their dear leaders into not trusting the science. The problem wasn't with the scientists, the problem was with trusting congenital liars who are willing to sacrifice their own people in the name of being in power.
People are, unfortunately, stupid enough that they have to be manipulated, especially in the present culture of pretending the next door neighbor's pet cat knowns more than the doctors because he doesn't like the veterinarian.
I mean, really, people were manipulated into cleaning out an entire supply chain of toilet paper via social media.
Why? because they are dumb as domestic turkeys

They shouldn't have lied to discourage people buying masks. Follow the science doesn't work, when science is being twisted. Dr.Fauci has already admitted doing it. Why would anyone believe him in the future? No matter how good the reason, it has injured science. People trust science is trying to report what it knows and believes accurately. That trust has been broken.

Thanks,
barondla

[aslyfox]

They shouldn't have lied to discourage people buying masks. Follow the science doesn't work, when science is being twisted. Dr.Fauci has already admitted doing it. Why would anyone believe him in the future? No matter how good the reason, it has injured science. People trust science is trying to report what it knows and believes accurately. That trust has been broken.

Thanks,
barondla

just a question for you

so if a person tells a falsehood

regardless of reason for why s/he told it

you never trust them again ?

example:

" how does this look on me ? "

[reh321]

They shouldn't have lied to discourage people buying masks. Follow the science doesn't work, when science is being twisted. Dr.Fauci has already admitted doing it. Why would anyone believe him in the future? No matter how good the reason, it has injured science. People trust science is trying to report what it knows and believes accurately. That trust has been broken.

Thanks,
barondla

He did not lie.
He spoke the truth that was in March 2020.
There was a shortage of masks then and he specifically said we needed to save them for those who truly needed them.

In early Spring 2018 my wife had passed out at work. They discovered that she had 'aplastic anemia' - her bone marrow wasn't doing its work.
She already had plane reservations to fly down to Florida to see her aging Mother, so after giving her three or four blood transfusions to renew her red blood cells and giving her a box of masks to protect her against infection, the doctor let her go. Meanwhile, he did some research. After she came home, she was in the hospital to receive infusions to repair her marrow; at that time, there was a big red sign on her room door saying that anyone entering the room needed to be masked to protect her. Thus, in March 2020, we still had a partial box of masks - which we carefully parceled out to relatives .... then my sister generated three groups of masks, each of a different design. At Christmas time. she polled the family to determine which design was best liked and then produced some seasonal ones. I hear she has a fourth design now, and a supply of them should arrive soon.

This kind of activity, and production from private companies, had eliminated the shortage within a month - and they had realized asymptomatic spread by then - so Fauci changed his advice in light of the new facts.

[Wheatfield]

They shouldn't have lied

This is where you are going wrong. As REH explained above.
Fauci did not lie. He was about the only one who didn't.

Even if he did, your reaction is beyond unreasonable.

[Rondec]

They shouldn't have lied to discourage people buying masks. Follow the science doesn't work, when science is being twisted. Dr.Fauci has already admitted doing it. Why would anyone believe him in the future? No matter how good the reason, it has injured science. People trust science is trying to report what it knows and believes accurately. That trust has been broken.

Thanks,
barondla

I think Dr. Fauci did the best he could. Reading his personal e mails to individuals, he was trying to provide reassurance in a time when people were scared to death.

The whole mask thing was difficult for a number of reasons.

1. There was a real shortage of masks. Health care workers were wearing masks for multiple shifts in a row. There weren't N-95s to be had in many places for love or money. It was felt that providers and nurses were more important to protect than individuals in communities -- particularly if COVID wasn't really prevalent around the country.

2. It was thought that the main way that COVID was transmitted was via fomites. People were wiping down their groceries. Scientists went onto cruise ships and found they could find traces of COVID several days after cabins were unoccupied. It turns out that this wasn't the primary way that COVID was spread and the main way was via aerosols and water droplets. Wiping down counters and door knobs may be a clean thing to do, but it doesn't make a difference with regard to COVID spread.

3. It was thought that healthy people couldn't transmit COVID. If this is true, then there was no point for someone without a cough or nasal congestion to wear a mask. It turns out that pre-symptomatic and low symptom people are the main way that COVID is spread. People usually do stay home when they feel ill. If they have a little scratchy throat and think they just have allergies, they go out and can spread COVID. Or they have no symptoms, but will develop them in a couple of days.

I think the important thing is to recognize when science changes. If you have cancer and your oncologist starts you on a chemotherapy regimen, would you be upset if two months in he told you that a study had just showed that a different protocol would give you a 99 percent chance of beating your cancer? I would think you would just be pleased and be willing to switch based on the new data, but maybe you should immediately fire your cancer doctor as being a liar and untrustworthy.

I think Dr. Fauci should have said a little less and recognized where we didn't know certain things, but I think people were going to be angry with him regardless of what he said and they would pick it apart after the fact.

[Wheatfield]

I think Dr. Fauci did the best he could. Reading his personal e mails to individuals, he was trying to provide reassurance in a time when people were scared to death.

The whole mask thing was difficult for a number of reasons.

1. There was a real shortage of masks. Health care workers were wearing masks for multiple shifts in a row. There weren't N-95s to be had in many places for love or money. It was felt that providers and nurses were more important to protect than individuals in communities -- particularly if COVID wasn't really prevalent around the country.

2. It was thought that the main way that COVID was transmitted was via fomites. People were wiping down their groceries. Scientists went onto cruise ships and found they could find traces of COVID several days after cabins were unoccupied. It turns out that this wasn't the primary way that COVID was spread and the main way was via aerosols and water droplets. Wiping down counters and door knobs may be a clean thing to do, but it doesn't make a difference with regard to COVID spread.

3. It was thought that healthy people couldn't transmit COVID. If this is true, then there was no point for someone without a cough or nasal congestion to wear a mask. It turns out that pre-symptomatic and low symptom people are the main way that COVID is spread. People usually do stay home when they feel ill. If they have a little scratchy throat and think they just have allergies, they go out and can spread COVID. Or they have no symptoms, but will develop them in a couple of days.

I think the important thing is to recognize when science changes. If you have cancer and your oncologist starts you on a chemotherapy regimen, would you be upset if two months in he told you that a study had just showed that a different protocol would give you a 99 percent chance of beating your cancer? I would think you would just be pleased and be willing to switch based on the new data, but maybe you should immediately fire your cancer doctor as being a liar and untrustworthy.

I think Dr. Fauci should have said a little less and recognized where we didn't know certain things, but I think people were going to be angry with him regardless of what he said and they would pick it apart after the fact.

I don't think we can discuss Fauci's role without the context of the pressures that were being put on him by the people that he answered to, and that is a subject we cannot broach.
I think we all know the facts surrounding this, though some of us might adhere to an alternate set of facts, and we should probably leave it at that.

[Rondec]

I don't think we can discuss Fauci's role without the context of the pressures that were being put on him by the people that he answered to, and that is a subject we cannot broach.
I think we all know the facts surrounding this, though some of us might adhere to an alternate set of facts, and we should probably leave it at that.

Sure. I just think he wasn't a liar or even trying to be deceptive. The science has changed and recommendations changed as a result. That's what is supposed to happen.

[slartibartfast01]

Sure. I just think he wasn't a liar or even trying to be deceptive. The science has changed and recommendations changed as a result. That's what is supposed to happen.

There was an awful.lot of confusion over masks in the early days of the pandemic.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-face-mask-rule-changes-ti...-a4533531.html

[Wheatfield]

Sure. I just think he wasn't a liar or even trying to be deceptive. The science has changed and recommendations changed as a result. That's what is supposed to happen.

Yes well, a lot of people seem to pick up on a phrase or partial sentence, build a narrative around it, and absolutely refuse to move from what is, essentially, a lie.

So, don't buy masks, we need them for front line workers," becomes "Fauci said don't buy masks".
Then a narrative of convenience gets built around that lie of omission, and suddenly it's "We can't trust the science because Fauci lied about needing masks right off the hop".

[aslyfox]

well based on the latest decision -

The director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Friday endorsed booster shots of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine for older Americans, people living in long-term care facilities, adults with underlying medical conditions and frontline workers who are at an increased risk of COVID-19 exposure.

CDC director endorses Pfizer booster for front-line workers, overruling advisory panel - CNET

I'm planning on a Pfizer booster shot in December

won't be 65 until Jan 30 2022 but I think I qualify in the third group

Called my primary care physician and I'm qualified

[PDL]

More depressing news:
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/doctor-lost-over-100-patients-123132727.html
Yahoo News is more click bait than anything else, but there have been stories like this from the Midwest for some time now.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/11/16/south-dakota-nurse-coronavirus-deniers/

I would imagine that the death counts are lower than they should be due to the patients families requesting death certificate "modifications". I am sure that some people do not want to suggest that their loved one died from a Hoax.

Get - Vaccinated.

[Fontan]

More depressing news:
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/doctor-lost-over-100-patients-123132727.html
Yahoo News is more click bait than anything else, but there have been stories like this from the Midwest for some time now.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/11/16/south-dakota-nurse-coronavirus-deniers/

I would imagine that the death counts are lower than they should be due to the patients families requesting death certificate "modifications". I am sure that some people do not want to suggest that their loved one died from a Hoax.

Get - Vaccinated.

I have to tell you though that was a common occurrence back in January, when COVID was just raging ripping thru Southern California where I live. I had patients cursing at me between their labored breaths, demanding another diagnosis.

We as a society maybe at a point where people not getting vaccinated is actually beneficial in the long run. We just may have to let natural selection take its course. The tricky part is the issue of unvaccinated children though. It’s utterly unfair to ding these kids for having stupid parents.

[Rondec]

More depressing news:
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/doctor-lost-over-100-patients-123132727.html
Yahoo News is more click bait than anything else, but there have been stories like this from the Midwest for some time now.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/11/16/south-dakota-nurse-coronavirus-deniers/

I would imagine that the death counts are lower than they should be due to the patients families requesting death certificate "modifications". I am sure that some people do not want to suggest that their loved one died from a Hoax.

Get - Vaccinated.

I think it is really hard to admit that "you did your research" and you were wrong. When people are sick enough to end up in the ICU they go one of two directions -- either they decide they were wrong and want the vaccine (not understanding that it is preventative and useless once you are actually critically ill) or they get even more strident in saying that this is all a conspiracy and they don't have COVID.

It feels like the American people lives in the Kubler-Ross stages of dealing with grief with regard to COVID. Most of them are in a mixture of denial (COVID isn't real), bargaining (I'll just take ivermectin and it will be fine), anger (the stupid doctors aren't giving me the care I need!), and depression (we're all going to get it, what's the point). I see a lot of the first three -- particularly anger -- and I feel like it is very destructive.

Kubler Ross said that the final stage is acceptance, but I think maybe trust would be a good word. Being able to trust the people charged with caring for you, being able to trust the experts who have been wrong quite a bit in the last year is hard, but it is a much healthier place to live than anger, denial, bargaining, or depression. All of us have to trust someone, better to have it be someone who truly cares about us and has some wisdom to boot.

[Parallax]

I see a lot of the first three -- particularly anger -- and I feel like it is very destructive.

There are four basic human emotions: Joy, sorrow, fear, and anger. Of the latter 3 fear is the easiest to deal with for most people and it's a quite natural conversion reaction to fear and/or sorrow. It is often very destructive but if properly directed it it can have positive results.

[aslyfox]

there seems to be a human trait shared by many of us:

it isn't my fault, it's the fault of someone else

so

I didn't make the wrong decision when offered a chance to get the vaccine

and when some of those people who chose to not to get vaccinated and then Covid 19 will blame and attack others

however non rational such actions appear to others

that doesn't surprise

I have read that some people or their relatives have successfully convinced a court or two to ignore medical advice from treating medical teams

and order other " treatment "

so far I haven't read that such " treatment " includes ingestion of bleach, only deworming treatment