[micromacro]

not sure what you are relying on but -

lesson to be learned - do not rely on press releases:



Fact Check-Study did not conclude that people who have been infected with COVID-19 are protected for life | Reuters

Where did I say about protection for life? Natural immunity trigger memory against the whole virus, not only to one protein, but it does not guarantee re-infection. Neither vaccines.

[reh321]

Where did I say about protection for life? Natural immunity trigger memory against the whole virus, not only to one protein, but it does not guarantee re-infection. Neither vaccines.

but studies have concluded vaccine provides more protection than infection does

[Digitalis]

Got my booster shot done today (Pfizer) my arm hurts, nurse must have gone to far in.

[akptc]

I love DIY projects so waiting for a homemade vaccine. Meantime I promise to wear a mask and poke my nose weekly while on this forum

[BigMackCam]

Another record for new infections here in England yesterday... BUT, while hospitalisations are at the highest level we've seen since March, they're nowhere near January's peak. Thus far, infections with Omicron aren't translating to the same proportion of hospital admissions as with earlier variants. The scientific community seems split on the main reason... Some are saying it's because this variant is weaker, while others are saying it's our increased immunity. All seem to agree that both are factors.

It's too early to draw any conclusions, of course, but - as has been suggested previously in the thread - perhaps this is an indication of reduced severity in the virus, and improved ability for us to fight it. Perhaps there's reason to hope that 2022 will be the year where we see COVID-19 become something akin to influenza in terms of impact and management...

[Serkevan]

Where did I say about protection for life? Natural immunity trigger memory against the whole virus, not only to one protein, but it does not guarantee re-infection. Neither vaccines.

That is not really how immunity works, natural or otherwise.
There are parts of the virus that elicit a response and parts that do not - antibodies against Covid recognize only the protein in question, the rest of the virus is largely irrelevant. The AZ vaccine uses the whole virus and is worse than the mRNA ones, for instance.

The only advantage infection has is that since you're actually sick your nonspecific response is stronger, but that fades quickly and isn't really "immunity". And that usually comes about through being sick as a dog.

---------- Post added 12-29-21 at 02:48 AM ----------

Another record for new infections here in England yesterday... BUT, while hospitalisations are at the highest level we've seen since March, they're nowhere near January's peak. Thus far, infections with Omicron aren't translating to the same proportion of hospital admissions as with earlier variants. The scientific community seems split on the main reason... Some are saying it's because this variant is weaker, while others are saying it's our increased immunity. All seem to agree that both are factors.

It's too early to draw any conclusions, of course, but - as has been suggested previously in the thread - perhaps this is an indication of reduced severity in the virus, and improved ability for us to fight it. Perhaps there's reason to hope that 2022 will be the year where we see COVID-19 become something akin to influenza in terms of impact and management...

Likewise here - daily cases are *doubling* the previous highest peak, but if you look at deaths or intensive care occupancy you would not think we're in a massive wave at all.
It does mean primary care is on the verge of collapsing, everything is super slow these days... Friends who were close contacts with positives got their PCR appointments 3-5 days out.

[Rondec]

Where did I say about protection for life? Natural immunity trigger memory against the whole virus, not only to one protein, but it does not guarantee re-infection. Neither vaccines.

Most of the antibodies generated out of a COVID infection are unimportant in terms of immunity. The only antibodies that help fight off future infections are those antibodies that target proteins on the surface of the virus. While your body will form antibodies to internal proteins of the virus, these don't help clear the infection at all.

The problem is that as the virus mutates the surface proteins on the virus changes enough that previous antibodies aren't as effective -- they may still prevent severe illness, but they may not protect against an infection.

(On a different subject)

I saw this study that indicated that more than 25 percent of men who have had COVID have reduced sperm motility for over two months after COVID infection. Sperm quality and absence of SARS-CoV-2 RNA in semen after COVID-19 infection: a prospective, observational study and validation of the SpermCOVID test - ScienceDirect Some seem to have developed anti-sperm antibodies as well.

I just found this interesting because one of the antivaccine points I've heard mentioned is that the vaccine reduces fertility. This isn't true, but it does seem like COVID does, at least in some men.

---------- Post added 12-29-21 at 05:58 AM ----------

That is not really how immunity works, natural or otherwise.
There are parts of the virus that elicit a response and parts that do not - antibodies against Covid recognize only the protein in question, the rest of the virus is largely irrelevant. The AZ vaccine uses the whole virus and is worse than the mRNA ones, for instance.

The only advantage infection has is that since you're actually sick your nonspecific response is stronger, but that fades quickly and isn't really "immunity". And that usually comes about through being sick as a dog.

---------- Post added 12-29-21 at 02:48 AM ----------



Likewise here - daily cases are *doubling* the previous highest peak, but if you look at deaths or intensive care occupancy you would not think we're in a massive wave at all.
It does mean primary care is on the verge of collapsing, everything is super slow these days... Friends who were close contacts with positives got their PCR appointments 3-5 days out.

For clarity, I think AZ and Janssen's vaccines actually use an adenovirus to get cells to make spike protein. I don't think they actually use the whole virus.

Here locally, there are 70-ish people in the hospital with COVID. The max we got to in January was 125 or so. The thing is that even though we are off that peak, a high number of people are sick enough to end up in the ER even though they aren't actually admitted and Lynchburg General has put out a statement asking people to avoid going to the ER if they can help it. Current wait time there to be seen is 13.5 hours.

---

Last edited by Rondec; 12-29-2021 at 04:00 AM.

[Serkevan]

The problem is that as the virus mutates the surface proteins on the virus changes enough that previous antibodies aren't as effective -- they may still prevent severe illness, but they may not protect against an infection.

In fact: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03829-0
Monoclonal antibodies barely work on Omicron due to the differences in the spike protein. That is problematic, admittedly...

For clarity, I think AZ and Janssen's vaccines actually use an adenovirus to get cells to make spike protein. I don't think they actually use the whole virus.

Here locally, there are 70-ish people in the hospital with COVID. The max we got to in January was 125 or so. The thing is that even though we are off that peak, a high number of people are sick enough to end up in the ER even though they aren't actually admitted and Lynchburg General has put out a statement asking people to avoid going to the ER if they can help it. Current wait time there to be seen is 13.5 hours.

Huh, you're right - I thought those two were inactivated coronavirus vaccines and that it was Sputnik that was adenovirus-based, but it's all three of them.
Regarding ER numbers, vaccination in Spain is at 80% of the entire country, with ~92% of target population (40+ years) with double dose - those very high numbers have fortunately taken a lot of bite out of the virus. Still, my brother's friend has spent a week feeling pretty sick despite having had two shots (although that's one case - the other 3 or 4 positives I know personally have had symptoms ranging from a runny nose to what would have been a mild flu course with some 3-4 days of ~38ºC fever).

It's in Spanish but the graph is simple ("Al menos una dosis" = at least one dose, "Pauta completa" = Completed course". Age ranges on the left):


The vaccination of kids under 11 is now underway, as they are adorable walking petri dishes and the biggest reservoir for the virus right now.

[photogem]

Most of the antibodies generated out of a COVID infection are unimportant in terms of immunity. The only antibodies that help fight off future infections are those antibodies that target proteins on the surface of the virus. While your body will form antibodies to internal proteins of the virus, these don't help clear the infection at all.

Do you have a link to that?
From what I know it is more like that:
- If a non-vaccinated person caught Covid and had little to no symptoms, immunity is not strong either. Then one vaccination + Booster (mRNA) is highly imporant.

- If a non-vaccinated person caught Covid and had strong symptoms, immunity is strong as well. It was said that it could last up to 2 years but one doesn't have yet any reliable data, it is all damn new. But no vaccination nor booster is necessary (yet!).

Antibodies can be tested/measured:
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/cclm-2021-0700/html

Possibly it is similar to influenca: The virus changes again and again (mutation) and thus a vaccine which was alright last year possibly won't help this year.

[Rondec]

Do you have a link to that?
From what I know it is more like that:
- If a non-vaccinated person caught Covid and had little to no symptoms, immunity is not strong either. Then one vaccination + Booster (mRNA) is highly imporant.

- If a non-vaccinated person caught Covid and had strong symptoms, immunity is strong as well. It was said that it could last up to 2 years but one doesn't have yet any reliable data, it is all damn new. But no vaccination nor booster is necessary (yet!).

Antibodies can be tested/measured:
Predicting the protective humoral response to a SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccine

Possibly it is similar to influenca: The virus changes again and again (mutation) and thus a vaccine which was alright last year possibly won't help this year.

I think we are early on in figuring out Omicron, but the Imperial College of London said that they think previous infection is about 19 percent protective against getting an Omicron infection. It may be that the majority of those infections will be mild, but if they can be passed throughout the community then it will increase the chance the previously uninfected/unvaccinated people will catch it. https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/232698/omicron-largely-evades-immunity-from-past/

[Racer X 69]

but studies have concluded vaccine provides more protection than infection does

With far less risk to one's health.

[Rondec]

Do you have a link to that?
From what I know it is more like that:
- If a non-vaccinated person caught Covid and had little to no symptoms, immunity is not strong either. Then one vaccination + Booster (mRNA) is highly imporant.

- If a non-vaccinated person caught Covid and had strong symptoms, immunity is strong as well. It was said that it could last up to 2 years but one doesn't have yet any reliable data, it is all damn new. But no vaccination nor booster is necessary (yet!).

Antibodies can be tested/measured:
Predicting the protective humoral response to a SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccine

Possibly it is similar to influenca: The virus changes again and again (mutation) and thus a vaccine which was alright last year possibly won't help this year.

This study from the CDC is interesting: Laboratory-Confirmed COVID-19 Among Adults Hospitalized with COVID-19?Like Illness with Infection-Induced or mRNA Vaccine-Induced SARS-CoV-2 Immunity ? Nine States, January?September 2021 | MMWR

They mention in the discussion that their findings are different from Israeli findings. So Israel found that the risk of COVID infection was higher with vaccinated people at six months compared to those who had "natural" immunity. What is unsaid there is that many of those infections were fairly mild, as this study showed over 5 times greater risk of hospitalization after COVID infection/reinfection compared to the vaccinated population.

[luftfluss]

It's now been 24+ hours since my wife received her Moderna booster and so far her only symptoms are a light headache and mild fatigue.

[RobA_Oz]

We’re off to stand in line for our booster shots today.

[BigMackCam]

It's now been 24+ hours since my wife received her Moderna booster and so far her only symptoms are a light headache and mild fatigue.

That's great news

I spoke to my oldest friend a few days ago... like me (and your missus) he had the Moderna Spikevax booster... and, like me, he had some joint pain. But he also had a fever, and his injection site was swollen and angrily-red for several days. Plus, he felt quite fluey. He said he wouldn't claim to have been ill, exactly, but definitely unwell. He recovered and feels great now, but clearly folks have different reactions to this vaccine. I still think it's a small price to pay, in most cases...