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01-23-2022, 02:06 AM - 1 Like   #3301
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
There seems to be a tendency these days to amplify and exaggerate problems. For example, it's no longer enough to say that you were feeling a bit down or anxious for a few days or weeks (something we all go through many, many times in life)... Now, an increasing number of folks insist on calling these undoubtedly-unpleasant but rather minor and common feelings "mental health issues". I think at least some claims of COVID-19 vaccine "side effects" are of this nature. I'm not sure of the reason, but my guess is it's linked to narcissism in social media.

I don't mean to imply there aren't genuine side-effects; I know from personal experience with my first Moderna booster (my second was fine), and especially my Mum's first AstraZeneca shot, that side-effects can be very real... but there's a big difference between one that renders you unable to function properly for months on end (my Mum's case) and one that simply makes you feel a little "off" for a day or two (my own).

It's an unpopular thing to say these days and doing so can risk one being "cancelled", but there are occasions where I roll my eyes and mutter "Man up!" under my breath...
I'll risk unpopularity (easy for me ) and also being cancelled by agreeing with you 100%, mate.

01-23-2022, 03:56 AM - 5 Likes   #3302
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QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
Well the answer is therapeutics and not vaccines at least until a dependable reliable vaccine can be thoroughly researched and proven before being deployed . Just as it should have been from the start of this debacle. You can blame that on a famous short little PHD who did the same thing during the aids epidemic era. Depend on a vaccine when other measures possibly could have help solve that problem. If therapeutics along with vaccines had been employed at the beginning of this 2 year nightmare instead of depending solely on experimental vaccines this debacle probably could have been ended a lot sooner. But noooooooo people were told to go home until you feel really lousy and then come on back to the hospital and we'll finish you off and file a report so we can collect a nice tidy bit of government cash.
I think there are a couple of things to mention.

(1) Vaccine reactions are real, but not as significant as bad reactions to COVID infections. The death totals in the US alone are nearly at 900,000 over the last two years. The number of patients in the hospital with COVID in Lynchburg right now is 150 (this a 350 bed hospital). COVID has been really bad. Full stop.

(2) Even against Omicron, vaccinations have prevented serious illness with COVID. Unvaccinated folks over 65 were 50 times more likely to end up in the hospital than vaccinated folks in the same age range. CDC COVID Data Tracker There was significant prevention of hospitalization rates for younger people as well. Once again, this doesn't say that Omicron doesn't breakthrough. It does. It just doesn't cause severe illness in the way that unvaccinated people experience it.

(3) Work on vaccines did not prevent work on antiviral agents. It takes time to develop antivirals. Paxlovid is out now and monoclonal antibodies have been out for some time. I think it is important to remember that there are significant side effects noted with antiviral agents too. Paxlovid interacts with blood thinners, statin drugs, and some antidepressants. The FDA EUA of Paxlovid lists diarrhea, altered taste, elevated blood pressure, and muscle aches all as possible side effects of this medication. Merck's is less effective and has more side effects. https://www.fda.gov/media/155052/download#:~:text=Possible%20side%20effects%...se%20reactions. Once again, these medications will help, but they are expensive and not perfect. Certainly there weren't any available two years ago "when this whole thing started."

(4) Hospitals are paid a little more for providing care to COVID patients, but this does not make up for revenue lost when they have to cancel elective procedures. Doctors and nurses are not compensated any more and many physicians saw their income drop significantly over the last couple of years due to periodic cancellations of said procedures. The stress level on hospitalists and nursing staff is phenomenal. The idea that they are milking this along because of extra compensation is simply not true.

Maybe I've said too much, but the last couple of years have been awful in ways that are difficult to describe and the fact that many have attacked medical folks who are doing their best feels wrong to me.

Last edited by Rondec; 01-23-2022 at 05:47 AM.
01-23-2022, 04:15 AM   #3303
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think it is important to remember that there are significant side effects noted with antiviral agents too.
Indeed, as with almost every therapeutic drug - including some incredibly common, well-established, over-the-counter types. Acetaminophen, the active ingredient in paracetamol / Tylenol - something most of us routinely pop for a headache or other incidental pain - has some eye-watering potential side effects, as this information summarises rather well (scroll down to the "For Healthcare Professionals" section)...
01-23-2022, 05:26 AM - 1 Like   #3304
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QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
Well the answer is therapeutics and not vaccines at least until a dependable reliable vaccine can be thoroughly researched and proven before being deployed . Just as it should have been from the start of this debacle. You can blame that on a famous short little PHD who did the same thing during the aids epidemic era. Depend on a vaccine when other measures possibly could have help solve that problem. If therapeutics along with vaccines had been employed at the beginning of this 2 year nightmare instead of depending solely on experimental vaccines this debacle probably could have been ended a lot sooner. But noooooooo people were told to go home until you feel really lousy and then come on back to the hospital and we'll finish you off and file a report so we can collect a nice tidy bit of government cash.
It has never been clear to me what people mean by “experimental vaccine”. As someone who was part of a real ‘control group’ {for Salk’s polio vaccine}, I decided to get the real treatment for something as soon as it is available. I’ll let others risk disease in voluntary inclusion in a voluntary ‘control group’. The U.S. government does periodically ask me how I’m feeling, but I’ll leave filling up the hospitals to others. My 80-something Aunt had some kind of accident, but they kept her in the hospital for as short a time as possible, because they needed ‘her bed’ for a Covid patient. Most deaths and hospitalizations are amongst the unvaccinated - that is evidence enough for me.

01-23-2022, 05:49 AM   #3305
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
It has never been clear to me what people mean by “experimental vaccine”. As someone who was part of a real ‘control group’ {for Salk’s polio vaccine}, I decided to get the real treatment for something as soon as it is available. I’ll let others risk disease in voluntary inclusion in a voluntary ‘control group’. The U.S. government does periodically ask me how I’m feeling, but I’ll leave filling up the hospitals to others. My 80-something Aunt had some kind of accident, but they kept her in the hospital for as short a time as possible, because they needed ‘her bed’ for a Covid patient. Most deaths and hospitalizations are amongst the unvaccinated - that is evidence enough for me.
The antivirals out now are "experimental" in the same ways the vaccines were. There is no official FDA approval for Paxlovid, only and emergency authorization, same as there was initially for the vaccines.
01-23-2022, 06:57 AM - 3 Likes   #3306
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
. . . Hospitals are paid a little more for providing care to COVID patients, but this does not make up for revenue lost when they have to cancel elective procedures. Doctors and nurses are not compensated any more and many physicians saw their income drop significantly over the last couple of years due to periodic cancellations of said procedures. The stress level on hospitalists and nursing staff is phenomenal. The idea that they are milking this along because of extra compensation is simply not true.

Maybe I've said too much, but the last couple of years have been awful in ways that are difficult to describe and the fact that many have attacked medical folks who are doing their best feels wrong to me.
shout that loud and often

the fear I saw in my primary care physician's eyes when she thought, correctly, I was infected with covid was shocking

she apologized as her nature changed abruptly and she told me how her job make her fear for her young child at home who was too young for a vaccine shot

my daughter in law is a radiology technologist and does the x rays and cat scans used to make the diagnosis of the most severely afflicted covid cases and faces possible exposure while doing so [ 12 hour plus shifts ]

we should act like we did at the beginning of the crisis when we saluted and supported these folks

not as some do now, spreading conspiracy theories and, in some cases, attacking them

Last edited by aslyfox; 01-23-2022 at 07:05 AM.
01-23-2022, 02:20 PM - 2 Likes   #3307
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QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
Well the answer is therapeutics and not vaccines at least until a dependable reliable vaccine can be thoroughly researched and proven before being deployed . Just as it should have been from the start of this debacle. You can blame that on a famous short little PHD who did the same thing during the aids epidemic era. Depend on a vaccine when other measures possibly could have help solve that problem. If therapeutics along with vaccines had been employed at the beginning of this 2 year nightmare instead of depending solely on experimental vaccines this debacle probably could have been ended a lot sooner. But noooooooo people were told to go home until you feel really lousy and then come on back to the hospital and we'll finish you off and file a report so we can collect a nice tidy bit of government cash.
Unfortunately, antivirals are tough to develop, and they are usually pretty bad at what they do (or ridiculously expensive to manufacture - like monoclonal antibodies*). Vaccines are a much easier and effective way of solving the problem. We'd be more or less where we are, but without the vaccine in between.
So, long story short, you may want to add another half million deaths in the US for that approach, give or take.


*By the way, those do not work against Omicron at all unless they are made specifically for this strain - almost no impact on the severity of the infection. The vaccine does reduce the symptoms by a lot.

---------- Post added 01-23-22 at 02:22 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
It's an unpopular thing to say these days and doing so can risk one being "cancelled", but there are occasions where I roll my eyes and mutter "Man up!" under my breath...
Well what if you're a woman, you sexist person?
Jokes aside, I do feel like oftentimes people on the Internet are just looking for a fight, and will take any chance to get outraged just because.

01-23-2022, 02:26 PM - 7 Likes   #3308
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
Well what if you're a woman, you sexist person?
I would never say such a thing to a woman. Based on years of experience, I'm terrified of them and convinced they came here by spaceship...
01-23-2022, 02:30 PM - 1 Like   #3309
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Indeed, as with almost every therapeutic drug - including some incredibly common, well-established, over-the-counter types. Acetaminophen, the active ingredient in paracetamol / Tylenol - something most of us routinely pop for a headache or other incidental pain - has some eye-watering potential side effects, as this information summarises rather well (scroll down to the "For Healthcare Professionals" section)...
Oh yeah, it is actually quite easy to get liver damage from paracetamol. And because of my size, the recommended dose for paracetamol is about 75% of the "please don't go over this" number - which is 4 g a day (I either take 1 g tablets or I get nothing out of it - so 3 g in 8 h intervals).
01-23-2022, 02:36 PM - 2 Likes   #3310
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
There seems to be a tendency these days to amplify and exaggerate problems. For example, it's no longer enough to say that you were feeling a bit down or anxious for a few days or weeks (something we all go through many, many times in life)... Now, an increasing number of folks insist on calling these undoubtedly-unpleasant but rather minor and common feelings "mental health issues". I think at least some claims of COVID-19 vaccine "side effects" are of this nature. I'm not sure of the reason, but my guess is it's linked to narcissism in social media.

I don't mean to imply there aren't genuine side-effects; I know from personal experience with my first Moderna booster (my second was fine), and especially my Mum's first AstraZeneca shot, that side-effects can be very real... but there's a big difference between one that renders you unable to function properly for months on end (my Mum's case) and one that simply makes you feel a little "off" for a day or two (my own).

It's an unpopular thing to say these days and doing so can risk one being "cancelled", but there are occasions where I roll my eyes and mutter "Man up!" under my breath...
A bit off topic but I make a point of, and love, engaging with the dwindling number of people who lived through the 1940s and 50s and I’m always amazed at how they “coped” with all they went through.My favourite response is “Oh,dear we just got on with it!”That’s not to belittle real mental health problems but I totally agree with you Mike!

Last edited by timb64; 01-23-2022 at 02:42 PM.
01-23-2022, 03:11 PM - 3 Likes   #3311
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
. . . I do feel like oftentimes people on the Internet are just looking for a fight, . . .
Them's fightin' words

lay on MacDuff

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[ personal note, my recovery from Covid 19 is ongoing and doing well, waiting for my N 95 masks to arrive ( told they would be delivered a week ago - ha ) and Ihave ordered my free in home tests from the US Government which I am sure the USPS will deliver in the future some time ]

Last edited by aslyfox; 01-23-2022 at 03:18 PM.
01-23-2022, 03:32 PM   #3312
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QuoteOriginally posted by aslyfox Quote
Them's fightin' words

lay on MacDuff

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[ personal note, my recovery from Covid 19 is ongoing and doing well, waiting for my N 95 masks to arrive ( told they would be delivered a week ago - ha ) and Ihave ordered my free in home tests from the US Government which I am sure the USPS will deliver in the future some time ]
Good to hear that you are getting better.
01-23-2022, 03:32 PM   #3313
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
but there are occasions where I roll my eyes and mutter "Man up!" under my breath...
Hyperbole does seem to be on the increase.
01-23-2022, 03:44 PM - 1 Like   #3314
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
It's an unpopular thing to say these days and doing so can risk one being "cancelled", but there are occasions where I roll my eyes and mutter "Man up!" under my breath...
“Grow up” is the gender-free alternative, applicable to all possible variations.
01-23-2022, 03:50 PM - 3 Likes   #3315
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Time for some 'probable' good news, the Omicron wave here seems to be on the way down (lets just say that the data is not as reliable as it used to be).



The 'it's only a cold' crowd are claiming it's because everyone has already been infected, but the numbers say otherwise. Only 7.5% of Australians, maybe 10% of Victorians. But I'm guessing closer to 20% of those who 'don't care'.

Voluntary isolation or risk reduction is probably the driving factor aided by some nice hot sunny weather.
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