[ChrisPlatt]

I had no reaction to my second dose of the Pfizer vaccine at the end of May.
I did have a little soreness for a day or two around the injection site.

Chris

[Parallax]

Interestingly, for the past 6 weeks, the only hospital cases we have seen are people who are not vaccinated at all or who are less than 3 weeks out from their second shot.

It shows off the glaring hypocrisy of the anti vaxxers. If they were really true to their beliefs they would suffer in silence at home, either getting better or not without the intervention of the medical profession they disrespect.

We were in Missouri last week. A news report sad Covid is spiking there, the Delta variant almost exclusively. The state as a whole is well under 40% vaccinated. The Springfield area, where it's running rampant is barely over 30%.
As of the time of the report there were 129 people hospitalized in Springfield. Of those, 126 had not been vaccinated.

[reh321]

The thing is that the people who are getting the Delta strain are now trending young and unvaccinated. Delta seems to cause a little worse disease, so these people do end up in the hospital, even though they are young, but they aren't usually dying. They can still spend quite a bit of time in the hospital.

I just keep coming back to the idea that there is a large group of people who undersell how bad COVID can be. A focus on mortality statistics can lead to missing the severe debility that some suffer after a COVID infection.

If you are 40 years old and otherwise healthy, it is easy to say "I only have a 0.3 percent chance of dying from COVID, I'll take my chances." That will miss the much higher chance that you will need to be hospitalized, take two or three weeks off of work, and may have long haul COVID with months of fatigue, shortness of breath, and loss of smell. This is as compared to the vaccine which has fairly high rates of moderate side effects (fever, body aches, etc), but low rates of severe side effects.

I know a family whose son brought Covid home from college last Fall. The husband suffered from "brain fog" for a while, the older daughter {who has asthma} suffered from lung complications for a while, and the wife dealt with heart rhythm issues {she asked that people not ask about it, so I don't know if that is continuing}.

[jpzk]

Well .... second dose for me last week and my arm was so darn sore for 2 days!!! And tiredness galore !! Much worse than with the first shot.

My wife had one heck of a reaction to her second dose this past weekend ... fever, migraines, muscular pain, articular pain, just like a full blown flu!!!
She still is under the weather but starting to recover slowly.

If there is to be a third dose .... I quit !!!

---------- Post added 07-12-21 at 11:15 AM ----------

Now that most everyone is getting vaccinated, businesses are reopening, and things are beginning to return to normal, it is time to remove the masks.

Comforting !

[Just1MoreDave]

...
I just keep coming back to the idea that there is a large group of people who undersell how bad COVID can be. A focus on mortality statistics can lead to missing the severe debility that some suffer after a COVID infection.

If you are 40 years old and otherwise healthy, it is easy to say "I only have a 0.3 percent chance of dying from COVID, I'll take my chances." That will miss the much higher chance that you will need to be hospitalized, take two or three weeks off of work, and may have long haul COVID with months of fatigue, shortness of breath, and loss of smell. This is as compared to the vaccine which has fairly high rates of moderate side effects (fever, body aches, etc), but low rates of severe side effects.

The Denver Post had a story on Mesa County CO (Grand Junction and nearby areas), the state's hot spot for delta infections. One woman said she had already had COVID and it was the mildest disease she ever encountered. Also she lost her sense of smell and taste. I'm only married to an MD, but as I understand it, that means it went straight to her brain and altered it. It's hard not to say something insulting to that. She no doubt thinks she's 100% immune now. Even if it's no big deal to lose two of five senses and hope they'll come back some day, you know for a fact that these people are going to infect other people and kill some of them.

We just drove to Connecticut and back to see my mom, mostly I80. Most places until Pennsylvania had no mask wearing except some children. Connecticut had a lot of mask-wearing, odd because they are like 3rd in vaccine takeup.

[reh321]

The Denver Post had a story on Mesa County CO (Grand Junction and nearby areas), the state's hot spot for delta infections. One woman said she had already had COVID and it was the mildest disease she ever encountered. Also she lost her sense of smell and taste. I'm only married to an MD, but as I understand it, that means it went straight to her brain and altered it. It's hard not to say something insulting to that. She no doubt thinks she's 100% immune now. Even if it's no big deal to lose two of five senses and hope they'll come back some day, you know for a fact that these people are going to infect other people and kill some of them.

We just drove to Connecticut and back to see my mom, mostly I80. Most places until Pennsylvania had no mask wearing except some children. Connecticut had a lot of mask-wearing, odd because they are like 3rd in vaccine takeup.

Our county even had their fair this year.

This past week, we had about 10 cases per 100,000 residents and a ‘positivity rate’ of about 1.3%
My wife and I have been fully vaccinated since March, and I do feel fairly safe.

[Rondec]

The Denver Post had a story on Mesa County CO (Grand Junction and nearby areas), the state's hot spot for delta infections. One woman said she had already had COVID and it was the mildest disease she ever encountered. Also she lost her sense of smell and taste. I'm only married to an MD, but as I understand it, that means it went straight to her brain and altered it. It's hard not to say something insulting to that. She no doubt thinks she's 100% immune now. Even if it's no big deal to lose two of five senses and hope they'll come back some day, you know for a fact that these people are going to infect other people and kill some of them.

We just drove to Connecticut and back to see my mom, mostly I80. Most places until Pennsylvania had no mask wearing except some children. Connecticut had a lot of mask-wearing, odd because they are like 3rd in vaccine takeup.

My understanding is that the damage to taste and smell is due to damage that COVID inflicts on peripheral nerves, specifically something called sustentacular cells that are involved with the olfactory nerves. These can regenerate over time and so most people get their sense of smell back.

I do wonder how much of the loss of taste is simply the lack of smell. People don't realize, but at least 90 percent of taste is related to our ability to smell. The tongue can really only taste sweet/sour/salty/bitter so food will taste really odd if you can't smell it while you eat it.

...
You can submit whatever you like, but the science doesn't agree with your submission, no matter how disparaging and anti science you are.

Let's see... I'm "anti-science" because I rely solely on refereed papers published by professors and scientists who actually do the studies they're reporting on, as published by the National Institutes of Health, rather than the popular media. Hmmm.

[slartibartfast01]

Let's see... I'm "anti-science" because I rely solely on refereed papers published by professors and scientists who actually do the studies they're reporting on, as published by the National Institutes of Health, rather than the popular media. Hmmm.

Pretty sure there are many papers on pubmed that disagree with the ones you quote. Are they less valid?

[MarkJerling]

Let's see... I'm "anti-science" because I rely solely on refereed papers published by professors and scientists who actually do the studies they're reporting on, as published by the National Institutes of Health, rather than the popular media. Hmmm.

I think the problem stems from Wheatfield's point of view that the information you cited has been shown to be (very likely) wrong. Now, he could have said that a bit nicer, but the issue is that several studies disprove any link between aluminium and autoimmune disorders.

See, for instance this article for more information: https://www.jaci-inpractice.org/article/S2213-2198(17)30517-2/fulltext

That's the joy of science. A friend of mine with a science doctorate likes to point out that studies, no matter how scholarly, does not actually prove something. He contends that studies may show a strong likelyhood of something or may disprove something. So, in this instance, while there may have been some initial evidence that aluminium may play a role in autoimmune disease, several subsequent studies have shown the original hypothesis to be wrong.

[Parallax]

One thing that should be kept in mind regarding scientific studies:

Any given study can be completely impartial and the findings valid
OR
A study can prove or disprove whatever the people conducting it (and/or financing it) want it to

[Wheatfield]

An encouraging thing is that researchers are now indicating that the mRNA vaccines probably will last many years. The only issue is whether there are strains that aren't adequately covered by them.

Pfizer and Moderna Vaccines Likely to Produce Lasting Immunity, Study Finds - The New York Times

I do wonder about the whole idea that maybe, while people who have been vaccinated aren't getting sick much from the Delta strain, they can still can pass it on to others. Should they still wear masks then? My feeling has been that when we get to the point that everyone who wants to be vaccinated is vaccinated, then why bother? The people who have chosen the unvaccinated route, for whatever reason, can get it as many times as they want. But maybe I'm just a little upset with that group.

I'm with you on that one. Their refusal to get vaccinated is putting the society they live in at risk by making themselves potential growth media for variants. If they are so selfish as to not care about the health of the society they live in, I'm not seeing a lot of reason why I, as a member of that society, should remember to care about their lives.
I'm seeing the whole "I'm allergic to the vaccine" excuse as a really sad red herring. Apparently, people can be tested to see if they are allergic to the vaccine.

---------- Post added Jul 14th, 2021 at 08:45 AM ----------

I do. They have a lot of fear around the vaccines, believing them to have been developed too quickly, that they are causing a lot of death and debility that just isn't reported, and that COVID isn't that bad. I haven't found it very helpful to discuss it with them, because they are very certain of their false facts.

What really bother me are the "doctors" who aren't actually practicing, but have lent the weight of their diplomas to the anti-vax crowd. People like Simone Gold, Andrew Wakefield, and Joseph Mercola have made lots of money by speaking at conspiracy gatherings and writing books about these sorts of things. It makes people believe that "all doctors aren't for vaccinations" and that these things are more dangerous than what is reported.

Spreading vaccine fears. And cashing in. ? Center for Public Integrity

I didn't realize the Hippocratic Oath was about hypocrisy for these supposed health care professionals until I read a news report of some idiot doctor giving a presentation to, IIRC, the Ohio state legislature claiming that the vaccine made people magnetic..

I suppose covid isn't that bad if you consider dead bodies stacked up like cordwood in freezer trucks in hospital parking lots to be not that bad.

---------- Post added Jul 14th, 2021 at 08:55 AM ----------

Let's see... I'm "anti-science" because I rely solely on refereed papers published by professors and scientists who actually do the studies they're reporting on, as published by the National Institutes of Health, rather than the popular media. Hmmm.

You seem to draw conclusions that are in direct conflict with what experts in the field are saying. This might be deliberate, or it might be that what you are reading is written by whack jobs. Either way, it's anti science.

[ChrisPlatt]

I suppose covid isn't that bad if you consider dead bodies stacked up like cordwood in freezer trucks in hospital parking lots to be not that bad.[COLOR="Silver"]

In my discussions with vaccine hesitant coworkers often in parting I remind them
of those gruesome scenes we all saw from Elmhurst Hospital just a few miles up the road...

Chris

I think the problem stems from Wheatfield's point of view that the information you cited has been shown to be (very likely) wrong. Now, he could have said that a bit nicer, but the issue is that several studies disprove any link between aluminium and autoimmune disorders.

See, for instance this article for more information: DEFINE_ME

That's the joy of science. A friend of mine with a science doctorate likes to point out that studies, no matter how scholarly, does not actually prove something. He contends that studies may show a strong likelyhood of something or may disprove something. So, in this instance, while there may have been some initial evidence that aluminium may play a role in autoimmune disease, several subsequent studies have shown the original hypothesis to be wrong.

All very good points, thank you, though I think there are problems with the article you cited. First, there have never been any long term studies of the sort that could either prove or disprove the hypothesis. I have explained why it can take a really long time for symptoms to become noticable. Secondly, aluminum salts is the only adjuvant they discuss, and omit references to the neurotransmitter amino acids that are usually included. It does mention the fact that people vary a lot in the degree to which their immune system may be hyper-aggressive, which as it states, will make it very difficult to sort out what's really going on.

I think the problem here is that some folks may have rushed through what I actually said and assumed that I'm "anti-vaccine". While I agree that the majority should get one of the available vaccines, there is a limited group of people who should not have the vaccine for medical reasons. I think that the fact that almost all the "side effects" that have been reported are autoimmune disorder symptoms is telling. People who have that genetic characteristic have way too aggressive an immune system already and (1) don't need the vaccine, because their immune systems are already more than capable of producing the antibodies needed to allow them to remain asymptomatic (which is all the vaccine does, by the way, it doesn't keep the virus out of the body, what it does is provide a method of dealing with it when it does penetrate the outer defenses); and (2) the immune system triggering event the vaccine represents can be dangerous to such people (e.g., people with autoimmune disorder coming down with Guillian-Barre as a result of that triggering event). That may not apply to people who are taking various drugs and monoclonal antibodies designed to suppress their immune responses generally (e.g., things like Humira and methotrexate), who probably ought to be treated as normal people for vaccination purposes.

Oh, and the real killer isn't the aluminum salts, which do have a deleterious effect on metabolism of calcium (which is obviously an issue for autoimmune people, or it wouldn't have been used as an adjuvant). The real killer is glutamate or salts of glutamic acid. I noticed that not all the various flavors of vaccine contain glutamate, and I would predict that those will result in fewer serious side effects overall.

One more observation: the fact that I cited two articles doesn't mean that's all the reading I've done. I've done quite a lot of research on this topic over the past ten or fifteen years, since I happen to be afflicted with autoimmune disorder, myself.

[MarkJerling]

All very good points, thank you, though I think there are problems with the article you cited. First, there have never been any long term studies of the sort that could either prove or disprove the hypothesis. I have explained why it can take a really long time for symptoms to become noticable. Secondly, aluminum salts is the only adjuvant they discuss, and omit references to the neurotransmitter amino acids that are usually included. It does mention the fact that people vary a lot in the degree to which their immune system may be hyper-aggressive, which as it states, will make it very difficult to sort out what's really going on.

I think the problem here is that some folks may have rushed through what I actually said and assumed that I'm "anti-vaccine". While I agree that the majority should get one of the available vaccines, there is a limited group of people who should not have the vaccine for medical reasons. I think that the fact that almost all the "side effects" that have been reported are autoimmune disorder symptoms is telling. People who have that genetic characteristic have way too aggressive an immune system already and (1) don't need the vaccine, because their immune systems are already more than capable of producing the antibodies needed to allow them to remain asymptomatic (which is all the vaccine does, by the way, it doesn't keep the virus out of the body, what it does is provide a method of dealing with it when it does penetrate the outer defenses); and (2) the immune system triggering event the vaccine represents can be dangerous to such people (e.g., people with autoimmune disorder coming down with Guillian-Barre as a result of that triggering event). That may not apply to people who are taking various drugs and monoclonal antibodies designed to suppress their immune responses generally (e.g., things like Humira and methotrexate), who probably ought to be treated as normal people for vaccination purposes.

Oh, and the real killer isn't the aluminum salts, which do have a deleterious effect on metabolism of calcium (which is obviously an issue for autoimmune people, or it wouldn't have been used as an adjuvant). The real killer is glutamate or salts of glutamic acid. I noticed that not all the various flavors of vaccine contain glutamate, and I would predict that those will result in fewer serious side effects overall.

One more observation: the fact that I cited two articles doesn't mean that's all the reading I've done. I've done quite a lot of research on this topic over the past ten or fifteen years, since I happen to be afflicted with autoimmune disorder, myself.

Thanks for your reply. I have likewise done much reading on the topic. The comments you make about glutamic acid / glutamate is interesting and I'll need to find some of the material I have saved on that to respond.
I think many of us in this thread is sensitive to sentiments that may appear as if a poster is anti-vax. I realise that is not the case in your case.