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07-27-2021, 04:44 PM - 1 Like   #1186
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I think it is a tragedy, the Astrazeneca project. It came out of academia, not the megacorporation world. It was intended as a solution that included everyone, not just rich countries.

But the Russian Sputnik - against all predictions - has turned out to be a way better product. I wish Australia had licensed it instead of Astrazeneca.

It is very cheap and very good, unlike the two main Chinese ones.
We inadvertently dodged a bullet with the Chinese vaccine. We arrested some high ranking person from Hauwei who is wanted by the USA for something or other.
In retaliation, China arrested a couple of our citizens and abrogated the vaccine deal we had with Sinopharm.
Such is what happens when you do business with dishonest and dishonorable people.
However, it's a junk vaccine (I suspect the Chinese know it and don't care), so overall we are better off.

07-27-2021, 05:19 PM - 1 Like   #1187
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I think it is a tragedy, the Astrazeneca project. It came out of academia, not the megacorporation world. It was intended as a solution that included everyone, not just rich countries.

But the Russian Sputnik - against all predictions - has turned out to be a way better product. I wish Australia had licensed it instead of Astrazeneca.

It is very cheap and very good, performance seemingly right up there with the mRNA vaccines, unlike the two main Chinese ones.

Its single dose capability is an enormous benefit. Halves the workload on a health system, and requires half the motivation and effort from the population - perfect for the uneducated vaccine hesitant - and we have those in Australia, too! Achieving 91% in just 21 days means it's ideal to administer *during* a dangerous outbreak.

DEFINE_ME
I think Sputnik is probably very good, but I don't trust the Russian government to release all of their data -- either with regard to efficacy or side effects.
07-27-2021, 05:35 PM   #1188
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
However, it's a junk vaccine (I suspect the Chinese know it and don't care), so overall we are better off.
I know someone live in a developing country where the government has no choice but buying the vaccine from China in the early days because of the vaccine shortage. She was in an early Sinovac's test group for front-line use. Any shot is still better than no shot for those in the front-line.
Later the government own data collection raised doubts about the longer-term protection of the 2 dose from Sinovac, so now they ask those received Sinovac to come back for the third one which is Astrazeneca. She said, she feel nothing from the first 2 Sinovac shots, but the third one from Astrazeneca knock her out for 2 days.

Last edited by tokyoscape; 07-27-2021 at 06:02 PM.
07-27-2021, 10:42 PM   #1189
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think Sputnik is probably very good, but I don't trust the Russian government to release all of their data -- either with regard to efficacy or side effects.
I think it's why it's very useful to see its performance when not administered by Russians.

We can see that in Argentina. 2.8 million doses, without a blood clot death, even though Sputnik has analogues with AstraZeneca and J&J.

WHO is going through the certification process, and has found an issue with one of the nine Russian factories, but ultimately that's not a problem if you make it yourself under license.

07-27-2021, 11:05 PM - 1 Like   #1190
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I think it is a tragedy, the Astrazeneca project. It came out of academia, not the megacorporation world. It was intended as a solution that included everyone, not just rich countries.

But the Russian Sputnik - against all predictions - has turned out to be a way better product. I wish Australia had licensed it instead of Astrazeneca.

It is very cheap and very good, performance seemingly right up there with the mRNA vaccines, unlike the two main Chinese ones.

Its single dose capability is an enormous benefit. Halves the workload on a health system, and requires half the motivation and effort from the population - perfect for the uneducated vaccine hesitant - and we have those in Australia, too! Achieving 91% in just 21 days means it's ideal to administer *during* a dangerous outbreak.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00191-4/fulltext
Astrazeneca are currently testing a modified version of the vaccine tweaked for improved performance against the beta variant.

07-27-2021, 11:28 PM - 4 Likes   #1191
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Not me. Not today.

Already done that. Double dose.

Fully 5G compliant.
07-28-2021, 01:47 AM - 1 Like   #1192
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QuoteOriginally posted by slartibartfast01 Quote
Astrazeneca are currently testing a modified version of the vaccine tweaked for improved performance against the beta variant.
Yes, I think all the manufacturers will need to tweak their current designs to cope with emerging threats and we'll all get a third booster. Perhaps of a different brand, for robustness - there are many trials of that going on around the world!

07-28-2021, 02:09 AM   #1193
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Yes, I think all the manufacturers will need to tweak their current designs to cope with emerging threats and we'll all get a third booster. Perhaps of a different brand, for robustness - there are many trials of that going on around the world!
I am pretty sure I saw an article saying that the astrazeneca style vaccine couldn't be used for annual booster shots for some reason but of course now I can't find it.

07-28-2021, 03:48 AM - 1 Like   #1194
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote

South Africa stopped using it entirely for a different reason. They found its efficacy against their strain was about ten percent. You might as well be inoculating yourself with sugar pills!
07-28-2021, 07:30 AM - 1 Like   #1195
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Yes, I think all the manufacturers will need to tweak their current designs to cope with emerging threats and we'll all get a third booster. Perhaps of a different brand, for robustness - there are many trials of that going on around the world!
This isn’t really backed up by the virology. It’s important to distinguish between statements made by general infectious disease specialists and virologists who have studied the way this particular virus invades and reproduces, which is different to most viruses. Essentially, most possible mutations that leave a viable virus alter the spike protein in a way that makes it less effective at invading cells, and thus those mutations are pretty well doomed. For the mRNA vaccines the mechanism focuses solely on the spike protein, which has seen no meaningful changes in the variants that have surged. A reasonable hypothesis about the delta variant’s surge is that it has done something that improves reproductive efficacy once cells have been invaded, and so unvaccinated people with higher viral loads increase the exposure risk of vaccinated people, which means there is enough virus to overwhelm some vaccinated individuals’ immune systems.
07-28-2021, 08:33 AM - 1 Like   #1196
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QuoteOriginally posted by tokyoscape Quote
I know someone live in a developing country where the government has no choice but buying the vaccine from China in the early days because of the vaccine shortage. She was in an early Sinovac's test group for front-line use. Any shot is still better than no shot for those in the front-line.
Later the government own data collection raised doubts about the longer-term protection of the 2 dose from Sinovac, so now they ask those received Sinovac to come back for the third one which is Astrazeneca. She said, she feel nothing from the first 2 Sinovac shots, but the third one from Astrazeneca knock her out for 2 days.
Yup. That getting knocked on your can is a good indication the vaccine is actually doing something. If there are no temporary side effects from a vaccine, especially a covid one, I would be very suspicious of how effective the vaccine will be. As it appears that China is dealing with another pretty severe hit with covid-19, I would guess that the Sinovac vaccine is pretty useless.

I'm not sure if very limited protection is better than none, as the shot does give a person a sense of confidence that they have immunity, which can lead them to dropping their guard. The Sinovac vaccine appears to be more placebo than anything else.

As I said, the Chinese government did Canada a favor with their criminal behavior of abrogating the vaccine agreement they had with us. When they did it, I was angry because they were playing politics with the lives of Canadians, but in retrospect, I'm glad it went the way it did as it appears they are playing with people's lives with their pretend vaccine. We had to wait a few more months, but we got vaccines that worked rather than what turns out to be the typical made in China junk that has become synonymous with that nation.

---------- Post added Jul 28th, 2021 at 09:36 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Yes, I think all the manufacturers will need to tweak their current designs to cope with emerging threats and we'll all get a third booster. Perhaps of a different brand, for robustness - there are many trials of that going on around the world!
We are going to be playing Whack-a-Mole with this disease for a very long time, especially since every country that isn't actually holding it's citizens down and forcing vaccinations is dealing with a refusal rate of 20% to 50%. The anti vaxxers and vaccine refusers have become as big a problem as the disease, as they are variant incubators.

Last edited by Wheatfield; 07-28-2021 at 02:25 PM.
07-28-2021, 08:44 AM - 3 Likes   #1197
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QuoteOriginally posted by jhaji Quote
Not me. Not today.

Already done that. Double dose.

Fully 5G compliant.
There were cell phone towers being burned down last summer in Canada's province of Quebec. The arsonists were stopping 5G from delivering instructions to your injected nanobots.

Seriously.

You can't make this stuff up.
07-28-2021, 10:35 AM - 2 Likes   #1198
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QuoteOriginally posted by tranq78 Quote
There were cell phone towers being burned down last summer in Canada's province of Quebec. The arsonists were stopping 5G from delivering instructions to your injected nanobots.

Seriously.

You can't make this stuff up.
Mmmm . . . . . nanobots.

07-28-2021, 12:01 PM - 2 Likes   #1199
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QuoteOriginally posted by Racer X 69 Quote
Mmmm . . . . . nanobots.

We laugh at the conspiracy theorists now.

But just you wait. This has already been predicted in the movies. So therefore it must be true.

This logic is infallible. A proof is a proof is a proof, just check out the movie clip about what will happen.


07-28-2021, 05:58 PM   #1200
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QuoteOriginally posted by mtkeller Quote
This isn’t really backed up by the virology. It’s important to distinguish between statements made by general infectious disease specialists and virologists who have studied the way this particular virus invades and reproduces, which is different to most viruses. Essentially, most possible mutations that leave a viable virus alter the spike protein in a way that makes it less effective at invading cells, and thus those mutations are pretty well doomed. For the mRNA vaccines the mechanism focuses solely on the spike protein, which has seen no meaningful changes in the variants that have surged. A reasonable hypothesis about the delta variant’s surge is that it has done something that improves reproductive efficacy once cells have been invaded, and so unvaccinated people with higher viral loads increase the exposure risk of vaccinated people, which means there is enough virus to overwhelm some vaccinated individuals’ immune systems.
Well, the subject is interesting, Mitch. There's no doubt that the vaccines weaken over time ... from https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01377-8 that Moderna/Pfizer has been modelled to drop to just 50% efficacy after 250 days, for instance. I think the CEO of Pfizer has already said a booster will be needed.

But what about new variants? The spike protein has changed over time - including mutations like L452R or Y453F, which have both been linked with hiding from the immune system.

There's real world evidence now that in addition to being more transmissable, the efficacy of vaccines is not the same with the new strains - for example, this study reports Astrazeneca being 75% effective after two doses against symptomatic Alpha, but only 67% against Delta, Pfizer 94% dropping to 88%.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891

Last edited by clackers; 07-28-2021 at 06:33 PM.
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