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08-02-2021, 06:09 PM   #1276
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It is amazing how many doses are being pitched out in the United States because there aren't folks willing to take them -- when there are plenty of people in developing nations who would be glad to take them. Over 110,000 unused COVID-19 vaccine doses destroyed by Georgia health officials since December - New York Daily News

08-03-2021, 03:53 AM - 1 Like   #1277
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aerolycea Quote
Ive been vaccinated but find the move to force individuals into receiving the shots or be out of jobs to be somewhat frightening. In non-health care-related businesses, the idea of mandating vaccines is more than my individualistic mindset can handle, really. Not a good sign for society, in my opinion.
Personally I'm of the opinion that vaccines should absolutely be mandatory. It's exactly the same as not drinking and driving - your behaviour has an effect on others and you are responsible for that, even if it means being forced into decisions on what you do or do not put in your own body.

Yes, ideally you would always be able to choose what goes into your body but do those who get the coronavirus get a choice on whether or not it goes in? No, so neither should the rest of us.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think there should be an option -- get vaccinated or get routinely tested, possibly at your expense. There are a few people who for whatever reason can't get vaccinated and I don't think they should lose employment, but I don't have a problem with saying that there are different rules for them compared to others who did get vaccinated.
Exactly. In France (and I think in New York) I believe there are some workers being given this choice and I very much hope that those individuals, unless they have a valid medical exception, have to bear the cost of those tests. They should also receive no sick pay for time off if they catch CoViD, as it's their own fault. I would be very happy to take that even further and say that people who catch CoViD after passing on the chance to get vaccinated should bear the full cost of all related healthcare for their treatment, even if they have insurance or would normally be covered by public healthcare.
08-03-2021, 06:06 AM - 1 Like   #1278
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
I would be very happy to take that even further and say that people who catch CoViD after passing on the chance to get vaccinated should bear the full cost of all related healthcare for their treatment, even if they have insurance or would normally be covered by public healthcare.
I would be careful with this line of thought, even if I sometimes mutter it to myself while reading the news. It can be twisted into a slippery slope a lot - I personally consider mandatory vaccination to be far less controversial than removal of healthcare rights.
But that's probably getting to close to the Big P Word, so I'll leave it there.
08-03-2021, 07:50 AM - 1 Like   #1279
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aerolycea Quote
I'll leave this part of the forum, I think, so as not to fall into the Political, but as a lifelong Liberal I tend to think this line of thought is more than dangerous. Just sayin.....off to see what books are on the tables of fellow Pentaxians and what music theyre listening to while reading.
Yellow Fever vaccine is already mandatory for travel to many places.



08-03-2021, 08:35 AM   #1280
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QuoteOriginally posted by slartibartfast01 Quote
Yellow Fever vaccine is already mandatory for travel to many places.
Yes, but travel to those places is not mandatory so you still have a choice regarding being vaccinated against yellow fever.
There's a big difference between something being mandatory for a specific circumstance and being mandatory simply because you exist.
08-03-2021, 09:08 AM   #1281
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I just found out Moderna has a trade name for the vaccine formerly known as mrna-1237 : Spikevax. If we have to get tattooed with our vaccine type, that will look cool, perhaps with a dragon. Unfortunately, Pfizer/BioNTech chose Comirnaty. I think everyone was asleep on that Zoom call.

What I was trying to find out was the approval track for other countries. Here, the FDA has applications for full approval. Apparently the typical process would mean full approval sometime in January 2022. And they are worried that a faster approval would imply shortcuts. I found something about the EMA which suggests a two year process, so now the FDA looks better by comparison.
08-03-2021, 09:24 AM - 3 Likes   #1282
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
I would be careful with this line of thought, even if I sometimes mutter it to myself while reading the news. It can be twisted into a slippery slope a lot - I personally consider mandatory vaccination to be far less controversial than removal of healthcare rights.
But that's probably getting to close to the Big P Word, so I'll leave it there.
It's something I wrestle with, but consider this, and I will use smoking as an example, as it is something that people do that can cause harm for others.
In Canada, and I'm sure in other jurisdictions, it is illegal to smoke indoors in public venues.
Why? Because the dangers of second hand smoke are well known and accepted as harmful.
We don't withhold medical treatment but we do treat smokers like modern day lepers.
Society has made that decision.
Societies can, if they so choose, make the same decision regarding covid unvaccinated persons.
This means the big bad covid passport, but doesn't society have the right to protect itself from the anti social the same way it has chosen to protect itself from second hand smoke?

08-03-2021, 09:42 AM   #1283
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
It's something I wrestle with, but consider this, and I will use smoking as an example, as it is something that people do that can cause harm for others.
In Canada, and I'm sure in other jurisdictions, it is illegal to smoke indoors in public venues.
Why? Because the dangers of second hand smoke are well known and accepted as harmful.
We don't withhold medical treatment but we do treat smokers like modern day lepers.
Society has made that decision.
Societies can, if they so choose, make the same decision regarding covid unvaccinated persons.
This means the big bad covid passport, but doesn't society have the right to protect itself from the anti social the same way it has chosen to protect itself from second hand smoke?
Oh yes, I am totally in favour of restrictions such as those - I couldn't even go out until Spain passed similar smoking laws. Withdrawing the right to universal healthcare is a much bigger, not to mention explosive, can of worms.
08-03-2021, 11:44 AM   #1284
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QuoteOriginally posted by Just1MoreDave Quote
I just found out Moderna has a trade name for the vaccine formerly known as mrna-1237 : Spikevax. If we have to get tattooed with our vaccine type, that will look cool, perhaps with a dragon. Unfortunately, Pfizer/BioNTech chose Comirnaty. I think everyone was asleep on that Zoom call.

What I was trying to find out was the approval track for other countries. Here, the FDA has applications for full approval. Apparently the typical process would mean full approval sometime in January 2022. And they are worried that a faster approval would imply shortcuts. I found something about the EMA which suggests a two year process, so now the FDA looks better by comparison.
As a phase 3 Moderna trial participant, I volunteer for a (small, discreet) Spikevax tattoo if they pay for it!

Yes, the FDA is definitely being very cautious to ensure that they don't make it look like they're cutting corners. Given what we've seen about how bungled the AZ trials were globally, I think that's wise. I do think they've been sitting on the data for 6–12 year old kids for longer than I had expected, especially with school starting up and probably lots of parents who would have liked to get their children vaccinated before school starts. I know the Moderna trial has something like a 24 or 26 month time period on the informed consent for phase 3. I don't think the FDA has to wait for that period to fully pass, but I would guess they have standards about needing to follow x trial participants for at least y months before granting full approval, and reducing either x or y would look a lot like corner cutting.
08-03-2021, 12:13 PM - 2 Likes   #1285
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Got Pfizer last January and the family has followed suit. All good here.
08-03-2021, 12:25 PM   #1286
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I don't think we are talking about the one millionth of one percent outliers who can't be vaccinated, we are talking about the 30% who refuse out of social spitefulness.
Those people need to be tested daily to make sure they aren't a threat to society, and they should be made to pay for every test, the ideal way would be via wage garnishment.
I work for a large multinational aerospace manufacturer, at their largest factory. Every day around 45,000 people come and go around the clock. It is like a small city.

Everyone is encouraged to get vaccinated, and allowed to do so on company time (2 hours paid).

A majority of the workers are now vaccinated, but even those who aren’t show up everyday, sans mask.

Now that there is an upturn in new cases mostly among the unvaccinated, the state has returned to requiring masks indoors, and social distancing. It was announced today that beginning tomorrow we all have to wear masks again.
08-04-2021, 04:55 AM - 1 Like   #1287
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
I would be careful with this line of thought, even if I sometimes mutter it to myself while reading the news. It can be twisted into a slippery slope a lot - I personally consider mandatory vaccination to be far less controversial than removal of healthcare rights.
But that's probably getting to close to the Big P Word, so I'll leave it there.
QuoteOriginally posted by Aerolycea Quote
I'll leave this part of the forum, I think, so as not to fall into the Political, but as a lifelong Liberal I tend to think this line of thought is more than dangerous. Just sayin.....off to see what books are on the tables of fellow Pentaxians and what music theyre listening to while reading.
Yes, best to veer away from the political but I will add that I am very liberal myself, hence my stance, as people should have the liberty to be free from disease wherever possible.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
It's something I wrestle with, but consider this, and I will use smoking as an example, as it is something that people do that can cause harm for others.
In Canada, and I'm sure in other jurisdictions, it is illegal to smoke indoors in public venues.
Why? Because the dangers of second hand smoke are well known and accepted as harmful.
We don't withhold medical treatment but we do treat smokers like modern day lepers.
Society has made that decision.
Societies can, if they so choose, make the same decision regarding covid unvaccinated persons.
This means the big bad covid passport, but doesn't society have the right to protect itself from the anti social the same way it has chosen to protect itself from second hand smoke?
I haven't done the sums but my view is that, through taxes on what they smoke, smokers should pay for all the healthcare they're likely to need (based on averages of course, not specifics). As long as they don't inflict their smoke on others and just self-harm while paying for it, that's fine.
08-04-2021, 05:44 AM - 4 Likes   #1288
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
Yes, best to veer away from the political but I will add that I am very liberal myself, hence my stance, as people should have the liberty to be free from disease wherever possible.



I haven't done the sums but my view is that, through taxes on what they smoke, smokers should pay for all the healthcare they're likely to need (based on averages of course, not specifics). As long as they don't inflict their smoke on others and just self-harm while paying for it, that's fine.
How about an anti vaxxer tax?

I did the math a few decades ago and came to the conclusion that smokers paid the lion's share of all of Canada's health care via taxes, not just their own potential treatment for related illnesses.
Canada taxes tobacco very heavily. Something like 90% of the retail price of a pack of cigarettes is tax.
08-06-2021, 11:34 PM - 1 Like   #1289
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Just want to share the on going statistic.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations - Statistics and Research - Our World in Data
08-07-2021, 02:03 AM   #1290
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I suppose it is in the nature of wealthy of people not to value the gifts they are given, while those who are poor could only wish for the same advantages (speaking of vaccines here).

Cases and deaths are climbing back up in the US -- mostly in states like Florida, Arkansas, Missouri, and Louisiana. The northeast (which is well vaccinated) isn't seeing the same spike. We are back up to averaging 500 deaths a day for the last week. In our local hospital we are back up to 35 folks admitted with COVID (we had gotten down to 2 patients at the end of June). Of the 15 patients in ICU, 14 are unvaccinated. All of those 14 are between the ages of 30 and 50.
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