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09-22-2021, 06:59 AM   #1636
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QuoteOriginally posted by mtkeller Quote
. . . . Science constantly takes the best information available and draws conclusions. When more information becomes available or circumstances change, those conclusions get updated. Science is always the best we know now and prepared to change in the face of additional evidence.
well put

over time we learn more about a disease or virus

and the way to combat them

so yes the advice changes

that is normal

09-22-2021, 07:10 AM - 1 Like   #1637
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QuoteOriginally posted by Racer X 69 Quote
But the money comes from the people through taxes.

So each taxpayer is an owner of the health care system.
That's the point. In a for profit model such as what is used in the USA, the company underwriting the insurance has a typical business model, much like any other company that is retailing something.
The business model puts profit and shareholder value at the top of the list. Obviously, no company wants it's customer base dying off, but every company will, at some point, fire the occasional customer for being too expensive.

Try being a serial returner at Amazon and see how long it is befor they stop shipping to your address and accepting your credit card.

Also, I expect there are several levels of health care based on how much gold pressed latinum the customer is willing to pay, much like there are several levels of car based on how much the customer is willing to pay.

In the universal model that Canada uses, there is, in theory, one level of care that everyone gets, and as there is no profit model, due to the shareholders and customers being the same people, there are no financial dividends to pay out, resulting in lower overall costs.

Having said this, the system is far from perfect, and I expect in Canada it is going to get quite a bit more expensive in a hurry. The bill for treating our 1.6 million and counting cases at about Can$24k each is going to come home to roost at some point. Add to that, it's going to cost just to get the health care workers who have walked away because they can't handle the work stress any longer bribed back into the system.

---------- Post added Sep 22nd, 2021 at 08:14 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
This is why so many don't trust the experts. We were told over and over, in the US, that 70% would do it.

Thanks,
barondla
70% might have looked good a year and a half ago, but that's changed. The people who don't trust the experts don't understand or don't care to try to understand how learning about new stuff works.
Science evolves. I expect that the same people who don't trust medical experts would have decided rocket ships to the moon would never work because the first ones tended to blow up on the launch pad.
The people who don't trust the experts are willfully ignorant.

Last edited by Wheatfield; 09-22-2021 at 07:46 AM.
09-22-2021, 07:37 AM   #1638
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
This is why so many don't trust the experts. We were told over and over, in the US, that 70% would do it.

Thanks,
barondla
Percent of a population that need to be immune to get Herd Immunity is based on the R0 of an infection. The R0 is how many people the average person with an infection will infect after catching the infection. Influenza is about 1.5. Alpha variant of COVID was around 3 and the Delta variant is supposed to be about 8.5. Measles is somewhere between 10 and 12. Any number over 1 means that an illness will tend to spread over time, but ones close to one are easier to control than ones that are high. Delta is much more contagious and that means that a higher number of people need to be immune for there to be true herd immunity.

Honestly, I doubt we'll get to herd immunity, because I don't think people keep their immunity to COVID long enough (this is true whether acquired from vaccination or infection). If you can get COVID every 18 months -- either because your immunity wanes or there is a new strain -- then it is something we'll continue dealing with in the long run.
09-22-2021, 07:43 AM   #1639
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
. . . Honestly, I doubt we'll get to herd immunity, because I don't think people keep their immunity to COVID long enough (this is true whether acquired from vaccination or infection). If you can get COVID every 18 months -- either because your immunity wanes or there is a new strain -- then it is something we'll continue dealing with in the long run.
my guess is that we will have to deal with covid like we do the flu each year

[ have you gotten your flu shot yet ? ]

annual shots based on the best guess of what variants are being dealt with

now the disclaimer:

I am not a doctor, nurse, scientist, or any such type, nor have I ever played such a role on screen, large or small, or on stage

and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night



09-22-2021, 07:49 AM - 3 Likes   #1640
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QuoteOriginally posted by aslyfox Quote
and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
My standard line for that is I slept in a box behind a Holiday Inn Express last night.
09-22-2021, 08:11 AM   #1641
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
This is why so many don't trust the experts. We were told over and over, in the US, that 70% would do it.

Thanks,
barondla
AFAICT, it's the areas with under 70% vaccination rate that are struggling. Here in NJ, for instance, we're at 71% partially vacc'd and 63% completely (pending boosters, of course). Our hospitals have not been overwhelmed in months. Despite the uptick due to Delta, we seem to be doing OK (being a relative term of course - folks are still getting sick and dying).

It seems that areas where vaccinations are significantly under 70% and the solutions to Covid include drinking hot water with lemon and taking farm-animal dewormer are having more problems with the virus.
09-22-2021, 09:30 AM   #1642
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QuoteOriginally posted by slartibartfast01 Quote
Do HMOs insist on vaccination for their clients? It would make perfect sense to do so.
To my knowledge No, they do not require vaccination. However, if you are going to go in and have a medical procedure you have to get a Covid-19 test (done by them) and be negative. Otherwise the procedure will not be scheduled.

I had a annual procedure in the spring and I had to have a negative test. My second shot had just fallen into the "effective" category. The test was negative and the procedure was carried out with no issues.

My wife's Choral group had one person report that they were positive for Covid-19 last week. She got a test on Monday, it was reported to her on Tuesday and she is currently on her way for her annual (except for last year) meet up with her college friends in NC.

The HMO seems to have a reasonable grip on handling this stuff. I get messages from them (blanket emails) asking to get everyone vaccinated. The emails are running about every other day.


Last edited by PDL; 09-22-2021 at 09:42 AM. Reason: spelling
09-22-2021, 09:38 AM   #1643
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Just curious, can someone explain this graph? Coronavirus (COVID-19) live map tracker from Microsoft Bing Why is their seven day average of new Sars Cov2 cases only 19 in a state in India with over 236 million human inhabitants? Are they lying about it??? Or, are they way ahead of the rest of the world????

Last edited by Larrymc; 09-22-2021 at 09:46 AM.
09-22-2021, 10:11 AM - 1 Like   #1644
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
AFAICT, it's the areas with under 70% vaccination rate that are struggling. Here in NJ, for instance, we're at 71% partially vacc'd and 63% completely (pending boosters, of course). Our hospitals have not been overwhelmed in months. Despite the uptick due to Delta, we seem to be doing OK (being a relative term of course - folks are still getting sick and dying).

It seems that areas where vaccinations are significantly under 70% and the solutions to Covid include drinking hot water with lemon and taking farm-animal dewormer are having more problems with the virus.
You have to be pretty granular when you look at percentages. In the state where I am, we are pretty high, 75.3%, but there are counties that are well below the state average. Here is the information distributed daily (except for weekends) for WA state.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/coronavirus-daily-news-upda...d-the-world-2/
Some Counties are doing well, and there is at least one running at 30%. The Governor is calling out the National Guard in areas to help with overcrowded hospitals and some counties/cities are calling for refrigerated trailers to act as morgues. As I stated in an earlier post, other states are shipping their "extra" patients to WA because their hospitals are at capacity. Even here, in some counties, the hospital effects are to the degree that emergency operations are "iffy". Meaning that if you have a heart attack in some places, you might not get into a hospital because the ICU beds are full of Covid patients, some from out of state.

I also read on the Seattle Times that insurance companies are beginning to not cover Covid hospitalizations, meaning that the "customer" is paying full price. Yet again showing that having a medical emergency in the US can make you go bankrupt. While people are grasping at straws, they are ignoring the FREE VACCINE that WORKS.

Get Vaccinated - do it today.

---------- Post added 09-22-21 at 10:19 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
Just curious, can someone explain this graph? Coronavirus (COVID-19) live map tracker from Microsoft Bing Why is their seven day average of new Sars Cov2 cases only 19 in a state in India with over 236 million human inhabitants? Are they lying about it??? Or, are they way ahead of the rest of the world????
Just like the "low" numbers in NK, China, Brazil, Venezuela, Belarus etc. It is because the reporting Governments are not telling the truth.

Remember, the "Spanish Flu" got its name because the US and other warring countries did not report how many people were dying. Only Spain, which was neutral in WWI, reported about the 1918 Pandemic - so that is where the name came from. I have read several articles that refer to Ft. Hayes in Kansas as being the place where the first cases of the "Spanish Flu" were reported. The US expeditionary force carried it to the battlefields of WWI and it spread from there around the world. Without a set of treatments for the disease is flourished and killed millions of people.

Last edited by PDL; 09-22-2021 at 10:20 AM.
09-22-2021, 10:24 AM - 1 Like   #1645
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
This is why so many don't trust the experts. We were told over and over, in the US, that 70% would do it.

Thanks,
barondla
My memory is that the experts have never specified an exact number..
I believe it has always been the “popular” “press” which has been fixated on 70%.
As time has passed, the experts have continually learned, and the popular press is never happy with admitting that some things are not known.
09-22-2021, 10:43 AM   #1646
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
My memory is that the experts have never specified an exact number..
I believe it has always been the “popular” “press” which has been fixated on 70%.
As time has passed, the experts have continually learned, and the popular press is never happy with admitting that some things are not known.
Apparently Dr. Fauci has thrown lots of numbers out.

Op-Ed: Why Did Fauci Move the Herd Immunity Goal Posts? | MedPage Today

Thanks,
barondla
09-22-2021, 10:46 AM   #1647
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stats for Shawnee County KS

confirmed cases 23,959 - no new cases yesterday

deaths 425 - no new cases yesterday

trend falling

stats for State of Kansas

confirmed cases 400,314 - 21 new cases yesterday

deaths 5,919 - no new cases yesterday

trend falling

vaccinations

total 3,035,260

Sept 21 + 3,487
09-22-2021, 11:59 AM   #1648
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QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
Just like the "low" numbers in NK, China, Brazil, Venezuela, Belarus etc. It is because the reporting Governments are not telling the truth.

Remember, the "Spanish Flu" got its name because the US and other warring countries did not report how many people were dying. Only Spain, which was neutral in WWI, reported about the 1918 Pandemic - so that is where the name came from. I have read several articles that refer to Ft. Hayes in Kansas as being the place where the first cases of the "Spanish Flu" were reported. The US expeditionary force carried it to the battlefields of WWI and it spread from there around the world. Without a set of treatments for the disease is flourished and killed millions of people.
That doesn't explain what is going on in the rest of India, is it just that the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh in not reporting when the rest of the vast nation of India is reporting? You might need to do a little research rather than dismiss the figures as not reporting
09-22-2021, 01:50 PM   #1649
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QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
That doesn't explain what is going on in the rest of India, is it just that the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh in not reporting when the rest of the vast nation of India is reporting? You might need to do a little research rather than dismiss the figures as not reporting
It's likely a mix of "not reporting" and "not testing". The test numbers in India is low for the size of the population, and probably that's more of an issue in that Indian state than others, much like those in many African countries where lots of people have got the disease but very few got tested.
09-22-2021, 02:38 PM   #1650
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QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
That doesn't explain what is going on in the rest of India, is it just that the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh in not reporting when the rest of the vast nation of India is reporting? You might need to do a little research rather than dismiss the figures as not reporting
So you didn't do enough research either?

So back to an analogy from the 1918 Flu. Several states did not adequately report the number of dead and sick (Georgia and Florida come to mind). It was intentional by those states so they would not look bad. Sorry, but state/district/province/county/city/districts don't provide information about things all the time. This is not a surprise.

When you ask a question and get a response that you don't like - don't get bent and the responder.

By the way - Get Vaccinated (in general not to any specific individual)

---------- Post added 09-22-21 at 02:41 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
It's likely a mix of "not reporting" and "not testing". The test numbers in India is low for the size of the population, and probably that's more of an issue in that Indian state than others, much like those in many African countries where lots of people have got the disease but very few got tested.
A reasonable assumption to make. It would be nice to have these Covid reporting sites show history. Ya know, did they report last month, last week etc. and the data are missing/not available for this reporting period?
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