[jeallen01]

Got third Pfizer

Immediate reaction

Grumpy

Out of shape

Tired

You think any of those caused by vaccine?

Sorry hear that - hope you feel better soon.

OTOH, as for us, some reactions to the 1st & 2nd Pfizer jabs early this year and "booster" 3rd Pfizer jabs a couple of weeks ago, and slight reactions from the earlier ones but very little reactions to the 3rd ones.

[ChrisPlatt]

The Amish response to Covid-19.

Reports of infection rates and deaths in the Amish community are probably quite suspect.

Relying on herd immunity may be an option for a relatively small insular isolated community
however it would likely take much longer to develop in our interconnected modern society.
And at what cost in human life?

Chris

[gaweidert]

Reports of infection rates and deaths in the Amish community are probably quite suspect.

Relying on herd immunity may be an option for a relatively small insular isolated community
however it would likely take much longer to develop in our interconnected modern society.
And at what cost in human life?

Chris

Herd immunity comes from either recovering from the disease or from getting vaccinated. I can believe that since the Amish as a whole are in much better health than the general population the death rate among them was lower. This is not a particularly deadly disease. The problem is that it was designed to spread fast hence you have a much larger number of people sick at the same time.

[Rondec]

The Amish response to Covid-19.


Amish Covid | Full Measure - YouTube

It is really difficult to assess COVID-19's effect on Amish communities because they have tended not to get tested or to change their patterns of service/behavior. The best I have seen on the subject was that a group with West Virginia University looked at obituaries in the Amish/Mennonite newspaper, "The Budget" and compared it to averages from previous years. They found that they were up significantly last year as compared to previous years, peaking with 125 percent increase in November. Closed but Not Protected: Excess Deaths Among the Amish and Mennonites During the COVID-19 Pandemic

---------- Post added 10-30-21 at 05:54 AM ----------

The CDC has just reported that vaccination provides five times the protection from Covid infection than prior Covid infection does.

I think that study was done with people who had been vaccinated recently (less than 6 months ago). I think initial protection from the vaccines is very good, unfortunately, it does seem to wane after that six months passes, hence the boosters.

I thought it was interesting that the CDC released data that showed that people vaccinated against COVID have reductions in non-COVID deaths as well. People Vaccinated Against COVID Less Likely to Die from Any Cause: Study. I have difficulty explaining it, except that maybe people who are willing to get vaccinated also are willing to do other preventive care things (take cholesterol lowering medications, blood pressure medicine, etc) compared to those who don't. I can't imagine that the vaccines reduce non-COVID deaths otherwise. It certainly does call into question the narrative that anti-vaxxers like RFK Jr. tell that COVID vaccines are causing more deaths than COVID-19 does.

[barondla]

It is really difficult to assess COVID-19's effect on Amish communities because they have tended not to get tested or to change their patterns of service/behavior. The best I have seen on the subject was that a group with West Virginia University looked at obituaries in the Amish/Mennonite newspaper, "The Budget" and compared it to averages from previous years. They found that they were up significantly last year as compared to previous years, peaking with 125 percent increase in November. Closed but Not Protected: Excess Deaths Among the Amish and Mennonites During the COVID-19 Pandemic

---------- Post added 10-30-21 at 05:54 AM ----------



I think that study was done with people who had been vaccinated recently (less than 6 months ago). I think initial protection from the vaccines is very good, unfortunately, it does seem to wane after that six months passes, hence the boosters.

I thought it was interesting that the CDC released data that showed that people vaccinated against COVID have reductions in non-COVID deaths as well. People Vaccinated Against COVID Less Likely to Die from Any Cause: Study. I have difficulty explaining it, except that maybe people who are willing to get vaccinated also are willing to do other preventive care things (take cholesterol lowering medications, blood pressure medicine, etc) compared to those who don't. I can't imagine that the vaccines reduce non-COVID deaths otherwise. It certainly does call into question the narrative that anti-vaxxers like RFK Jr. tell that COVID vaccines are causing more deaths than COVID-19 does.

The CDC tends to release findings that support their narratives.
Thanks,
barondla

[Serkevan]

I can't imagine that the vaccines reduce non-COVID deaths otherwise. It certainly does call into question the narrative that anti-vaxxers like RFK Jr. tell that COVID vaccines are causing more deaths than COVID-19 does.

I don't have time to read the study right now as I'm outside (I'll do that later, it looks interesting! Thanks for sharing), but one thing off the top of my head - beside that vaccinated folks are probably more likely to be vaccinated against other stuff and take other measures, as you say - would be that it's possible that some deaths were not directly caused by Covid, but due to Covid exacerbating a prior condition. It would depend a lot on testing rigor and whether long-haul Covid is considered, I suppose.

---------- Post added 10-30-21 at 04:27 AM ----------

The CDC tends to release findings that support their narratives.
Thanks,
barondla

As opposed to the folks with vested political and economic interests in going against restrictions, who are always unbiased . Hasn't the CDC updated their guidelines with growing scientific knowledge? That goes against the point you make.

[barondla]

I don't have time to read the study right now as I'm outside (I'll do that later, it looks interesting! Thanks for sharing), but one thing off the top of my head - beside that vaccinated folks are probably more likely to be vaccinated against other stuff and take other measures, as you say - would be that it's possible that some deaths were not directly caused by Covid, but due to Covid exacerbating a prior condition. It would depend a lot on testing rigor and whether long-haul Covid is considered, I suppose.

---------- Post added 10-30-21 at 04:27 AM ----------



As opposed to the folks with vested political and economic interests in going against restrictions, who are always unbiased . Hasn't the CDC updated their guidelines with growing scientific knowledge? That goes against the point you make.

Updated how? 1. Wear a mask. 2. Social distance. 3. Get vaccinated. Seems the same they've been saying for 1.5 years. They tend to follow scientific knowledge that fits their narrative. Like the govt. has no economic interests in any of this, or the drug companies? Get real.

Now the CDC claims, with only one study, that the vaccine even cures non Covid problems. Going to take a lot more science to make that case.
Thanks,
barondla

[Rondec]

Updated how? 1. Wear a mask. 2. Social distance. 3. Get vaccinated. Seems the same they've been saying for 1.5 years. They tend to follow scientific knowledge that fits their narrative. Like the govt. has no economic interests in any of this, or the drug companies? Get real.

Now the CDC claims, with only one study, that the vaccine even cures non Covid problems. Going to take a lot more science to make that case.
Thanks,
barondla

I don't think the point of the study is to say that COVID vaccines cure non-COVID problems. I certainly don't read it that way. The CDC took a bunch of people who had gotten the mRNA vaccines (4 million), a couple million who had gotten J and J's shot, and compared them to two million unvaccinated people who had gotten a flu shot in one of the last two years. They excluded any deaths that happened within 30 days of a positive COVID test and then compared mortality between the three groups.

Mortality rate for the mRNA vaccines was about 0.4 per 100 person years, it was 0.84 per 100 person years with the Janssen vaccine, and 1.47 per 100 person years for the unvaccinated group. There was no difference for the 12-17 year old groups.

To me, the point is simply to say that COVID vaccines do not have a high level of unreported mortality. That's all. A study which looks at several million people over this period of time is certainly going to pick up if there is an underlying danger to the vaccines that is just not being reported. This isn't to say that the vaccines don't have reactions and side effects, I'm sure they do, but there is no smoking gun here to indicate some underlying problem with them.

COVID-19 Vaccination and Non?COVID-19 Mortality Risk ? Seven Integrated Health Care Organizations, United States, December 14, 2020?July 31, 2021 | MMWR

I think there are a couple of possible explanations that they mention in their discussion. (1) People who get vaccinated are probably more likely to seek medical attention for various things and less likely to engage in risky behaviors. We may just be sorting out people based on their willingness to take care of themselves. The reason for choosing a comparison group with people who had gotten at least one flu shot in the last couple of years was to mitigate that somewhat, but it is still possible. (2) There are some underlying health conditions that are just more prevalent in the unvaccinated comparator group that weren't identified. (3) Some of this is undiagnosed COVID -- that is to say, a certain amount of sudden death is related to COVID blood clots and even though the people hadn't gotten tested for COVID, their deaths were actually attributable to this diagnosis. If someone died and had not gotten a positive COVID test, they were included in the study.

I think what Serkevan mentions is also a possibility. Someone gets COVID and that starts a spiral which ends up killing them after the thirty day window -- worsened heart failure, chronic lung disease, etc.

[LeeRunge]

I don't think the point of the study is to say that COVID vaccines cure non-COVID problems. I certainly don't read it that way. The CDC took a bunch of people who had gotten the mRNA vaccines (4 million), a couple million who had gotten J and J's shot, and compared them to two million unvaccinated people who had gotten a flu shot in one of the last two years. They excluded any deaths that happened within 30 days of a positive COVID test and then compared mortality between the three groups.

Mortality rate for the mRNA vaccines was about 0.4 per 100 person years, it was 0.84 per 100 person years with the Janssen vaccine, and 1.47 per 100 person years for the unvaccinated group. There was no difference for the 12-17 year old groups.

To me, the point is simply to say that COVID vaccines do not have a high level of unreported mortality. That's all. A study which looks at several million people over this period of time is certainly going to pick up if there is an underlying danger to the vaccines that is just not being reported. This isn't to say that the vaccines don't have reactions and side effects, I'm sure they do, but there is no smoking gun here to indicate some underlying problem with them.

COVID-19 Vaccination and Non?COVID-19 Mortality Risk ? Seven Integrated Health Care Organizations, United States, December 14, 2020?July 31, 2021 | MMWR

I think there are a couple of possible explanations that they mention in their discussion. (1) People who get vaccinated are probably more likely to seek medical attention for various things and less likely to engage in risky behaviors. We may just be sorting out people based on their willingness to take care of themselves. The reason for choosing a comparison group with people who had gotten at least one flu shot in the last couple of years was to mitigate that somewhat, but it is still possible. (2) There are some underlying health conditions that are just more prevalent in the unvaccinated comparator group that weren't identified. (3) Some of this is undiagnosed COVID -- that is to say, a certain amount of sudden death is related to COVID blood clots and even though the people hadn't gotten tested for COVID, their deaths were actually attributable to this diagnosis. If someone died and had not gotten a positive COVID test, they were included in the study.

I think what Serkevan mentions is also a possibility. Someone gets COVID and that starts a spiral which ends up killing them after the thirty day window -- worsened heart failure, chronic lung disease, etc.

I think the study points out just what you said, nobody’s dying from MRNA vaccines as lots of these misinformation sites claim. And that the person who gets vaccinated for covid, likely did for lots of other things and probably is more careful with their health in general. As the numbers suggest in the study.

What a lot of people, at least in the USA who are anti vaccine are not looking at is the breakdown in deaths by political affiliation. That shows the real damage of all this misinformation. Last I looked it was about 7x as many on one side dying as the other. So following misinformation has consequences that are very real for family’s on one side of the political spectrum.

As mentioned if this is a conspiracy of the CDC and United States government to sell Pfizer products, then why is the rest of the world doing the same thing? Are they that powerful to have global control over everyone? What about the other manufacturers, are they in league? China and Russia too?
It’s just way to much conspiracy to be pulled off by human beings.

The reality is it’s a global pandemic and we have vaccines that aren’t perfect but offer protection and are proven safe. We still have to see how well they hold up over the long run but that requires time and data.

As for CDC updates. They added that masks in use should be N95/FFP2/KN95 types and not cloth. But nobody seems to be paying attention there. Upgrade your masks as cloth never was very effective (it was a stop gap to prevent N95 supply depletion) and Delta makes that much more so. Just look at South Korea, heavy KN95 use and 45-65x less deaths adjusted for population than the United States. That is pretty strong evidence that proper masks work. If USA had that level of mask wearing with KN95’s (and not hanging under noses in protest) we would probably have had about 700,000 less deaths. Think about that.

If anyone should be a shining example of how to handle a pandemic it’s South Korea.

As for the USA, if I were our enemy’s I would be investing in bioweapon development with the new CRISPR and gain of function on virus’s. We are wide open vulnerable as proven by the last year and a half. And some states have banned future public health measures, playing into the advantage of a bioweapon attack. With something like MRNA vaccine it’s entirely plausible to engineer a virus and vaccine in tandem and utilize it against your enemy. It would be untraceable and create no environmental damage should you want those resources after. You could easily do this with covid as we have a large portion of the population who would refuse to get vaccinated as you ramped up the lethality of the virus in slow updated releases. Like boiling a frog.

[dstar]

Got third Pfizer

Immediate reaction

Grumpy

Out of shape

Tired

You think any of those caused by vaccine?

Just 24 hr back to normal

[Rondec]

I think the study points out just what you said, nobody’s dying from MRNA vaccines as lots of these misinformation sites claim. And that the person who gets vaccinated for covid, likely did for lots of other things and probably is more careful with their health in general. As the numbers suggest in the study.

What a lot of people, at least in the USA who are anti vaccine are not looking at is the breakdown in deaths by political affiliation. That shows the real damage of all this misinformation. Last I looked it was about 7x as many on one side dying as the other. So following misinformation has consequences that are very real for family’s on one side of the political spectrum.

As mentioned if this is a conspiracy of the CDC and United States government to sell Pfizer products, then why is the rest of the world doing the same thing? Are they that powerful to have global control over everyone? What about the other manufacturers, are they in league? China and Russia too?
It’s just way to much conspiracy to be pulled off by human beings.

The reality is it’s a global pandemic and we have vaccines that aren’t perfect but offer protection and are proven safe. We still have to see how well they hold up over the long run but that requires time and data.

As for CDC updates. They added that masks in use should be N95/FFP2/KN95 types and not cloth. But nobody seems to be paying attention there. Upgrade your masks as cloth never was very effective (it was a stop gap to prevent N95 supply depletion) and Delta makes that much more so. Just look at South Korea, heavy KN95 use and 45-65x less deaths adjusted for population than the United States. That is pretty strong evidence that proper masks work. If USA had that level of mask wearing with KN95’s (and not hanging under noses in protest) we would probably have had about 700,000 less deaths. Think about that.

If anyone should be a shining example of how to handle a pandemic it’s South Korea.

As for the USA, if I were our enemy’s I would be investing in bioweapon development with the new CRISPR and gain of function on virus’s. We are wide open vulnerable as proven by the last year and a half. And some states have banned future public health measures, playing into the advantage of a bioweapon attack. With something like MRNA vaccine it’s entirely plausible to engineer a virus and vaccine in tandem and utilize it against your enemy. It would be untraceable and create no environmental damage should you want those resources after. You could easily do this with covid as we have a large portion of the population who would refuse to get vaccinated as you ramped up the lethality of the virus in slow updated releases. Like boiling a frog.

It makes really sad to think that there are over 750,00 deaths when we could have a fraction of that in the US, if people just had listened a little bit. Japan has 18,000 deaths and a population of 125,000 and a much older population -- average age in Japan 48 years versus 38 years old for the US.

Anyway, people were so convinced that this was an attempt to take away liberty that they couldn't do common sense things to protect themselves and their families.

[Ex Finn.]

The freedom of choice here in the USA should not be infringed on, no matter what and that is that.
Get vaccinated or take a chance with the icu, we have a choice at least.

[aslyfox]

The freedom of choice here in the USA should not be infringed on, no matter what and that is that.
Get vaccinated or take a chance with the icu, we have a choice at least.

So one should be free to drive intoxicated if one wishes

[GeeEmm]

Got my third jab yesterday, Pfizer after 2x AZ.

No ill effects, if you don't count the green glow in the dark. The upside is that my mobile phone reception has noticeably improved.

[Racer X 69]

Another coworker has been taken by Covid. I didn’t know him personally, as he worked in a different part of the 767 freighter/KC46 tanker program, but we did cross paths occasionally.

RIP Scott.