[Kunzite]

I thought this debate has ended years ago.
SSD at least for the OS + swap. I'm still using HDDs since they're more cost effective for larger data volumes. I have a NAS unit with only HDDs, and that's fine over 1GbE.
But on my PCs and laptops, this isn't even a question.

Just be careful and get them from reputable brands.

[clackers]

I thought this debate has ended years ago.

It's very 2006, isn't it?

[Lord Lucan]

While working on photographs, an app uses the hard drive as additional memory, all the time.

PCs only resort to paging/swapping (which slows them) if the memory is not large enough to hold the data being worked on. Seems that most laptops are sold today with only 4 Gb, or 8 Gb at a premium. I have 16 Gb in my PC and I don't think anything I do ever causes it to touch the swap file. Keeping everything in memory is faster than paging, even to a SSD.

The old 500G HDD became pretty unusable , I replaced it with 250G SSD and the 17" notebook is very happy again.

That could partly be the "new computer" syndrome. Windows computers are prone to being progressively dragged down by spyware, nagware and malware. And the Windows NTFS file sytem* gets fragmented over time (it can be de-fragged, but how many people do?). It's the PC salesman's dream. Lady L's Windows 7 laptop eventually ground almost to a halt late last year, even though it was fine when it was new as is (for the time being) the new Win 10 laptop Father Xmas brought her. It's not like she's one to click random pop-ups or links.

My son while at uni did some work experience supporting a corporate Windows network. He came away with the comment that Windows likes nothing better than periodically wiping the drive clean and re-installing it.

* Microsoft have been trying for some time to replace NTFS with something better but don't seem to be having much luck. Their best shot is the ReFS which can be implemented in server environments but is unsatisfactory in workstations. MS are too proud presumably to adopt one of the open source solutions.

[Serkevan]

PCs only resort to paging/swapping (which slows them) if the memory is not large enough to hold the data being worked on. Seems that most laptops are sold today with only 4 Gb, or 8 Gb at a premium. I have 16 Gb in my PC and I don't think anything I do ever causes it to touch the swap file. Keeping everything in memory is faster than paging, even to a SSD.

That could partly be the "new computer" syndrome. Windows computers are prone to being progressively dragged down by spyware, nagware and malware. And the Windows NTFS file sytem* gets fragmented over time (it can be de-fragged, but how many people do?). It's the PC salesman's dream. Lady L's Windows 7 laptop eventually ground almost to a halt late last year, even though it was fine when it was new as is (for the time being) the new Win 10 laptop Father Xmas brought her. It's not like she's one to click random pop-ups or links.

My son while at uni did some work experience supporting a corporate Windows network. He came away with the comment that Windows likes nothing better than periodically wiping the drive clean and re-installing it.

* Microsoft have been trying for some time to replace NTFS with something better but don't seem to be having much luck. Their best shot is the ReFS which can be implemented in server environments but is unsatisfactory in workstations. MS are too proud presumably to adopt one of the open source solutions.

Windows is much better with fragging, lately. I did some cleaning on my mom's laptop when I was home last month and fragmentation was at ~4%, with the most recent previously logged defragging being in late 2018. I remember the XP era when after a year of light use you'd be in double-digit fragmentation percentages.

Regarding the "new computer" syndrome, it's absolutely true, but to be fair CPUs also end up suffering long-term. It's even worse in the case of laptops, as replacing the thermal paste and such make it frankly inconvenient (or outright impossible) to fully avoid wear and tear. That said, my laptop is ~4 years old and keeps on trucking with only minor performance losses in image editing (and that suspiciously started happening when I went from the K-7 to the K-1, go figure ).

PS: said laptop has 12 GB of RAM and I haven't managed to hit swap except a couple times on purpose (I opened Sketchup on 2 separate browsers, a videogame, Lighroom and RawTherapee all together). 8 GB is the lowest I'd be comfortable with for anything beyond basic Office stuff, though.

[Jonathan Mac]

Ever since my work laptop was upgraded to one with an SSD instead of HDD, and became the first laptop I've had that really feels like it's capable of doing what I need it to do, I would not even consider buying a laptop that didn't have the OS on a SSD. The speed increase is massive and I can use external HDDs for storage.

[bxf]

PCs only resort to paging/swapping (which slows them) if the memory is not large enough to hold the data being worked on. Seems that most laptops are sold today with only 4 Gb, or 8 Gb at a premium. I have 16 Gb in my PC and I don't think anything I do ever causes it to touch the swap file. Keeping everything in memory is faster than paging, even to a SSD.

I suspect that if you edit on a large image, with several layers in the process, you will find that your memory is insufficient, and that e.g. Photoshop will in fact use its scratch disk.

[BigMackCam]

PCs only resort to paging/swapping (which slows them) if the memory is not large enough to hold the data being worked on. Seems that most laptops are sold today with only 4 Gb, or 8 Gb at a premium. I have 16 Gb in my PC and I don't think anything I do ever causes it to touch the swap file. Keeping everything in memory is faster than paging, even to a SSD.

It's a balance, isn't it? If you have insufficient RAM and an HDD, either increasing RAM or swapping the HDD for SSD will improve performance, for different reasons (one reducing the need to swap, the other making swap and disk operations faster). If you have sufficient RAM, then depending on the use case an SSD can provide an appreciable performance boost when booting up, loading applications and VMs, searching for files, reading and especially writing and indexing large amounts of data. In your use case, where you keep the operating system and applications loaded and suspend the system rather than rebooting fully, only searching for files and the processing of large or numerous data files would show an appreciable improvement (and here, it most certainly would). For folks who load applications as they need them and close them when done, an SSD undoubtedly gives a performance advantage.

That could partly be the "new computer" syndrome. Windows computers are prone to being progressively dragged down by spyware, nagware and malware. And the Windows NTFS file sytem* gets fragmented over time (it can be de-fragged, but how many people do?). It's the PC salesman's dream. Lady L's Windows 7 laptop eventually ground almost to a halt late last year, even though it was fine when it was new as is (for the time being) the new Win 10 laptop Father Xmas brought her. It's not like she's one to click random pop-ups or links.

My son while at uni did some work experience supporting a corporate Windows network. He came away with the comment that Windows likes nothing better than periodically wiping the drive clean and re-installing it.

* Microsoft have been trying for some time to replace NTFS with something better but don't seem to be having much luck. Their best shot is the ReFS which can be implemented in server environments but is unsatisfactory in workstations. MS are too proud presumably to adopt one of the open source solutions.

You bring up a good point re bloatware, spyware and disk fragmentation. A lot of people don't clean and maintain their systems frequently enough, if at all. I keep a very tight reign on my OS, the applications I install and retain, the startup and background processes I allow, performance and battery-related settings etc. I no longer have to defragment, as both my OS and data drives are SSDs, and Windows handles that automatically. For web-browsing, I use Firefox set to "Strict" protection, with uBlock Origin and Privacy Badger add-ins, and have Firefox clear out cookies and history when it's closed - and because I close it at least once per day, there are rarely many cookies to clear. I use a combination of Windows Defender for anti-virus, on-demand Malwarebytes for malware detection, and a user account without admin privileges to protect the OS and keep it free of unwanted stuff. Defender, whilst not the strongest anti-virus tool, is fast and efficient compared to most others, and this too helps to keep the OS spritely.

I've worked in this way for some time, so I can be confident that the difference in performance I notice from an SSD compared to HDD - in my use-case - isn't due to "new computer" syndrome... but, for some, that may indeed be the case...

---

Last edited by BigMackCam; 08-03-2021 at 11:00 AM.

[Not a Number]

SSD for your System OS drive will definitely be the biggest speed boast.

Speed of the drive depends mostly on the controller and buffers.

The drawbacks with SSDs are the limited write cycles and powered off retention times.

There are currently three types of NAND flash memory used in SSDs (in order of expense and write cycles):
TLC (Triple Level Cell) - cheapest wrte cycles per cell barely 5000, 3000 being typical
MLC (Multi Level Cell) - multiple bits per cell so lower write counts. Cycles per cell around 10,000 writes.
SLC (Single Level Cell) - most expensive, generally for enterprise use. Cycles per cell around 100,000 writes.

Power off retention rates depend on class (client vs enterprise) and storage temperatures.



See Solid State Drives | JEDEC for more information on endurance and retention standards and testing.

Meanwhile enterprise level hard drives like the HGST/WD Ultrastar series have a 2.0 million hour MTBF rating (228.31 years).

Due to the limited write cycles it is sometime recommended by some that page, temp and other frequently updated or written files be set on a hard drive. I have my windows USER folders, page file and temp directories on a HGST Ultrastar drive. There are ways to move the USER folder - do not repeat do not simply copy and delete.

I forgot to mention the price difference between TLC and SLC SSD. You can pickup a 32GB TLC SSD under $20 USD but a 32GB SLC can run you around $260 USD.

[GUB]

SSD for your System OS drive will definitely be the biggest speed boast.

Speed of the drive depends mostly on the controller and buffers.

The drawbacks with SSDs are the limited write cycles and powered off retention times.

There are currently three types of NAND flash memory used in SSDs (in order of expense and write cycles):
TLC (Triple Level Cell) - cheapest wrte cycles per cell barely 5000, 3000 being typical
MLC (Multi Level Cell) - multiple bits per cell so lower write counts. Cycles per cell around 10,000 writes.
SLC (Single Level Cell) - most expensive, generally for enterprise use. Cycles per cell around 100,000 writes.

Power off retention rates depend on class (client vs enterprise) and storage temperatures.



See Solid State Drives | JEDEC for more information on endurance and retention standards and testing.

Meanwhile enterprise level hard drives like the HGST/WD Ultrastar series have a 2.0 million hour MTBF rating (228.31 years).

Due to the limited write cycles it is sometime recommended by some that page, temp and other frequently updated or written files be set on a hard drive. I have my windows USER folders, page file and temp directories on a HGST Ultrastar drive. There are ways to move the USER folder - do not repeat do not simply copy and delete.

I forgot to mention the price difference between TLC and SLC SSD. You can pickup a 32GB TLC SSD under $20 USD but a 32GB SLC can run you around $260 USD.

I guess this means it is very important to have plenty of ram to save the cpu from using swap.

[GUB]

You bring up a good point re bloatware, spyware and disk fragmentation. A lot of people don't clean and maintain their systems frequently enough, if at all. I keep a very tight reign on my OS, the applications I install and retain, the startup and background processes I allow, performance and battery-related settings etc. I no longer have to defragment, as both my OS and data drives are SSDs, and Windows handles that automatically. For web-browsing, I use Firefox set to "Strict" protection, with uBlock Origin and Privacy Badger add-ins, and have Firefox clear out cookies and history when it's closed - and because I close it at least once per day, there are rarely many cookies to clear. I use a combination of Windows Defender for anti-virus, on-demand Malwarebytes for malware detection, and a user account without admin privileges to protect the OS and keep it free of unwanted stuff. Defender, whilst not the strongest anti-virus tool, is fast and efficient compared to most others, and this too helps to keep the OS spritely.

I've worked in this way for some time, so I can be confident that the difference in performance I notice from an SSD compared to HDD - in my use-case - isn't due to "new computer" syndrome... but, for some, that may indeed be the case...

Long live Linux!!

[BigMackCam]

Long live Linux!!

Indeed

Although, to be fair, everything I now do on Windows 10 is the same as I did on Linux - except that I didn't use (or need) anti-virus or anti-malware tools on Linux, and didn't need to have seperate admin and user accounts...

[PDL]

PCs only resort to paging/swapping (which slows them) if the memory is not large enough to hold the data being worked on. Seems that most laptops are sold today with only 4 Gb, or 8 Gb at a premium. I have 16 Gb in my PC and I don't think anything I do ever causes it to touch the swap file. Keeping everything in memory is faster than paging, even to a SSD.

That could partly be the "new computer" syndrome. Windows computers are prone to being progressively dragged down by spyware, nagware and malware. And the Windows NTFS file sytem* gets fragmented over time (it can be de-fragged, but how many people do?). It's the PC salesman's dream. Lady L's Windows 7 laptop eventually ground almost to a halt late last year, even though it was fine when it was new as is (for the time being) the new Win 10 laptop Father Xmas brought her. It's not like she's one to click random pop-ups or links.

My son while at uni did some work experience supporting a corporate Windows network. He came away with the comment that Windows likes nothing better than periodically wiping the drive clean and re-installing it.

* Microsoft have been trying for some time to replace NTFS with something better but don't seem to be having much luck. Their best shot is the ReFS which can be implemented in server environments but is unsatisfactory in workstations. MS are too proud presumably to adopt one of the open source solutions.

And just when have you touched a new(er) Windows installation?
Windows 10 defrags hard drives in the back ground as part of its scheduled maintenance tasks. Defrag for the most part occurs when the maintenance task detects some threshold. At least since Windows 10 and possibly back to Windows 7 background maintenance has occurred as necessary.
The faux news about periodically wiping the drive is pure BS. (I was a Windows server/desktop administrator for thirty years, working for Global Fortune 1,000 company's with 100's of thousands of desktops/laptops and servers)

[clackers]

PCs only resort to paging/swapping (which slows them) if the memory is not large enough to hold the data being worked on. Seems that most laptops are sold today with only 4 Gb, or 8 Gb at a premium. I have 16 Gb in my PC and I don't think anything I do ever causes it to touch the swap file. Keeping everything in memory is faster than paging, even to a SSD.

Nuh, doesn't make sense, Lord Lucan, not to allow the OS to use it because its current allocation isn't taking into account what you might ask it to do in the next five minutes.

Red Hat recommend in your case a swap file of about 3Gb: Do we really need swap on modern systems?

[clackers]

And the Windows NTFS file sytem* gets fragmented over time (it can be de-fragged, but how many people do?)

Again, you're talking like it's 1997.

Defragmentation in Windows happens in the background now, I've not done it on the servers, workstations and notebooks I manage for years!

And of course, you know that defragmentation really doesn't apply to SSDs, right?

[clackers]

The faux news about periodically wiping the drive is pure BS. (I was a Windows server/desktop administrator for thirty years, working for Global Fortune 1,000 company's with 100's of thousands of desktops/laptops and servers)

Exactly. I have virtual production servers on some sites that have been doing authentication, DHCP, file and printing serving for a decade, moved to new hosts as the warranty expired on previous ones, been patched endlessly and upgraded in place from Server 2008 all the way through to Server 2016, they've inherited everything that's been done to them, never been wiped and reinstalled from scratch.

It's about the user. Give a notebook to a typical teenager and they will install everything and click 'Yes' to any prompt they see to get their game hack or porn access to work.

I have no problem wiping *their* drive completely, so they better back up anything they want to keep first, it'll come back to them like the day it came out of the box.