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01-03-2022, 11:19 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dartmoor Dave Quote
Everything you've read was probably true, but as long as you avoid the full moon or the solstices and equinoxes you should be able to get out of here alive. But please, please, beware of any wild-eyed strangers you meet out there on the moor carrying an assortment of out-of-date Pentax camera gear. Those guys are total nutters.
If you value your life or your reason or your camera gear, stay away from the moor (with apologies to ACD).

01-03-2022, 12:01 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by jawats Quote
In this line, I approached a friend of mine whose company both makes and purchases "stock" clothing for public servants (police, fire, etc.) and customizes them, depending on need. He recommended checking out the following suppliers, all of whom offer many-pocketed jackets which are water resistant (similar to the M65 jacket):

...

I tend to listen to you UK folks, who seem to be underwater (and surrounded by same) a fair amount. I'm leaning towards a lighter rain jacket with pockets, and layers when necessary, or perhaps a tactical vest.

Examples:

https://vertx.com/integrity-shell-jacket
Propper M65 Field Coat
Propper Tactical Vest
H2O PROOF ALL SEASON RAIN PARKA | TRU-SPEC : Tactically Inspired Apparel[COLOR="Silver"]
Some nice jackets in those examples Watch out on the Propper M65 though... it's treated cotton (I assume some kind of sprayed-on product, but it's difficult to know for sure). Whilst I've no doubt it's weather-resistant, it may not be water-proof. One of the reasons I like the look of that surplus Austrian army M65 is that it uses a separate Gore-tex membrane layer, and that is waterproof.

I'm jonesing for one of those Austrian jackets... The only thing concerning me is I have a 45" chest in my "birthday suit", and it says the large size fits up to 45", but the Austrian sizing is 104/108 - which is the chest size range in centimetres. 108cm is 42.5". I assume it's intended to be an outer shell for layering, hence the difference - but I need it big enough that I can wear a heavy jumper and a couple of thin layers under that. Guess I'll have to contact them and check...
01-03-2022, 01:10 PM   #18
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You should look into upland hunting apparel. Pockets need to be be big enough for shells and assorted hunting and dog items. A discreet game pouch adds a lot of versatility for carrying all types of items, including a place to keep an insulating layer when no longer needed. A quick search of "gore tex upland hunting jacket" yielded Men's Tek Upland Waterproof Jacket | Outerwear & Vests at L.L.Bean

Another option is to search for waterproof wading jackets. Fly fishermen need many expandable pockets for all their paraphernalia and they often include hidden hoods.
01-03-2022, 01:18 PM - 1 Like   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Personally, I wouldn't recommend oiled cotton. Late last year, I bought a new Barbour-style waxed country jacket - not specifically for photography, but as a general-use coat to wear in Spring and Autumn, and with warmer clothes underneath for Winter. It's an excellent jacket and I'm very pleased with it, but the wax transfers very easily to equipment - including anything stored in the lined pockets. For example, if I place my smartphone in one of the large side-pockets, when I take it out the screen and camera lens cover have a film of wax on them... and it's almost impossible to remove without using an alcohol-based wipe. Similarly, if I have my DSLR hanging from my neck or over my shoulder, after a few moments the screen is smeared with wax. As a result, I've stopped wearing the jacket when I'm doing photography, and I'm currently looking for another water-proof or water-resistant jacket for this specific purpose...
Further to my first response, I thought you folks might be interested in seeing how a well-waxed cotton jacket interacts with gear.

Here's my smartphone, freshly wiped clean with an alcohol wipe:



... and here it is after one minute of jiggling around in the pocket of my waxed jacket:



If you look closely, you can see the tips of my fingers are even waxy from handling it

To clean it, I had to take it out of the case (because the wax gets into the cracks and crevices), wipe the whole thing down - and the case - with paper towels first to get most of it off, then wipe it all down again with several moist alcohol wipes.

It's a real pain in the neck. Imagine having to do that with your camera and lens every time you use them while wearing the jacket...

However, it's a great outdoor coat for walking, and certainly is weather-resistant

01-03-2022, 02:07 PM - 1 Like   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Further to my first response, I thought you folks might be interested in seeing how a well-waxed cotton jacket interacts with gear.

Here's my smartphone, freshly wiped clean with an alcohol wipe:



... and here it is after one minute of jiggling around in the pocket of my waxed jacket:



If you look closely, you can see the tips of my fingers are even waxy from handling it

To clean it, I had to take it out of the case (because the wax gets into the cracks and crevices), wipe the whole thing down - and the case - with paper towels first to get most of it off, then wipe it all down again with several moist alcohol wipes.

It's a real pain in the neck. Imagine having to do that with your camera and lens every time you use them while wearing the jacket...

However, it's a great outdoor coat for walking, and certainly is weather-resistant
Fantastic post. I will definitely shy away from the wax-coated jackets for photography purposes.
01-03-2022, 06:14 PM - 1 Like   #21
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Any waxy finish will get all over everything, including your photo gear - especially optics!

The Domke Ruggedwear bags come with a small tin of "refinishing wax".
I'm willing to bet most buyers don't apply it a second time.

I once used Scotchgard spray on my canvas bags and jackets, before it became so expensive.
Now in bad weather I'd rather spend that money on a pint at a warm dry pub, or just stay home.

Chris
01-03-2022, 07:25 PM - 1 Like   #22
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New Zealand has the beak weather you are anticipating. The traditional go-to for preparing for this weather is the unique swandri range.

Men?s Jackets | New Zealand Natural Clothing

Used to be made in NZ as well but now Chinese made. Still lots of merino wool involved and some styles include possum fur added into the yarn before weaving. This product makes the cloth particularly warm and light. Not exactly waterproof but water resistant like a good Pentax lens and camera combination.

01-03-2022, 07:47 PM   #23
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I'll only make one post about this:

One of the reasons that wax and oil on cotton have drawbacks is that they are natural and simple products. They are relatively benign, and break down in nature. That, of course, includes the very rain they're protecting you from. You can reapply the wax or oil and restore function repeatedly as long as the fabric lasts.

High tech synthetic fabrics coated with PFCs or "nanoparticles" offer better performance and comfort, but are undeniably unhealthy for the environment and the people involved in their production (or who live near the factories, or, well, anywhere else on earth). There are indeed additional chemical products that can be applied when the jackets start to lose their impressive effectiveness, although these are likely even worse for us (Scotchgaurd... aka PFOS... yikes, is that stuff still available?), and also do not work as well as the factory applied chemicals, which leads many to purchase another garment to get back the performance they now 'require.'

Sorry to be such a downer. I know that not everyone shares my sensibilities or priorities on this matter. Happy shopping, all.
01-04-2022, 01:00 AM - 1 Like   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by wadge22 Quote
I'll only make one post about this:

One of the reasons that wax and oil on cotton have drawbacks is that they are natural and simple products. They are relatively benign, and break down in nature. That, of course, includes the very rain they're protecting you from. You can reapply the wax or oil and restore function repeatedly as long as the fabric lasts.

High tech synthetic fabrics coated with PFCs or "nanoparticles" offer better performance and comfort, but are undeniably unhealthy for the environment and the people involved in their production (or who live near the factories, or, well, anywhere else on earth). There are indeed additional chemical products that can be applied when the jackets start to lose their impressive effectiveness, although these are likely even worse for us (Scotchgaurd... aka PFOS... yikes, is that stuff still available?), and also do not work as well as the factory applied chemicals, which leads many to purchase another garment to get back the performance they now 'require.'

Sorry to be such a downer. I know that not everyone shares my sensibilities or priorities on this matter. Happy shopping, all.
You're not being a downer... That said, someone can broadly share your sensibilities and priorities yet be unable to find a product that is simultaneously compatible with them whilst performing the job it's required for, and at a price they can afford.

Everything we buy has some direct or indirect environmental and/or social impact somewhere in the manufacturing and distribution chain. For anyone who thinks cotton is environmentally friendly, WWF (and others) will tell you just how friendly it is: Cotton | Industries | WWF. Yes, there are "friendlier" standards of cotton production (e.g. the "Better Cotton" initiative), but even those have significant impact.

Given that we can't run around naked and bearskins are frowned upon these days, we have to wear manufactured products of some description, and figuring out the most environmentally friendly could tie a man in knots. Arguably, the best and most responsible approach (probably the easiest, too) is simply to buy the most versatile, effective and high-quality garment we can reasonably afford - one that performs well in multiple roles and only needs to be replaced infrequently, if ever - then get as much use from it as possible whilst looking after it. A good quality Gore-tex membrane jacket will keep the wearer dry, doesn't use additive treatments that transfer to skin or equipment, and should last for many years. Gore-tex itself may not be particularly environmentally friendly - but, if you're only buying a jacket once every 10 years, the impact is relatively low compared to three or four inferior garments in the same period. Sympatex is supposedly much better ecologically, if you can find a suitable jacket that uses it.

As has been mentioned already in this thread, layering is a good approach for warmth and weather-resistance, involving a number of garments that perform multiple roles when worn individually or in combination - so it's versatile and efficient. Used and/or surplus garments, whatever materials they're made from, are always more environmentally friendly than newly-manufactured ones, regardless of the materials and/or treatments used. If you can find used / surplus garments that suit your requirements (and that you actually like), that can be a great option... cheap, effective and relatively guilt-free. Military surplus can be incredible quality for the price... a few years ago I bought a surplus full-length Czech army coat, new and unissued, for about GBP £30. It's warm, durable and comfortable, and a consumer equivalent would have cost £100 - £200...

EDIT: I could do with practising what I preach a little more... That waxed-cotton jacket of mine, made from natural, simple products? It's a great jacket, but it was a poorly-thought-through choice. I can't wear it for photography because the wax gets everywhere (see my previous post with the smartphone - I used four sheets of kitchen paper towel and three individually-foil-wrapped alcohol wipes to clean the phone, all with their own manufacturing foot-print, and all going into waste). Now, I need to buy another jacket - at extra cost to me and the environment. Sigh...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 01-04-2022 at 07:49 AM.
01-04-2022, 07:37 AM - 1 Like   #25
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I have a waxed cotton jacket that I bought several years ago. It didn't offer much protection for any extended period in the rain and also tended to get mildew on the inside of it. A couple of good washings got the mildew out. I still have it. It looks cool but I never wear it outside in the rain anymore. As for "natural" products being better for the environment, I live not far from an area in NY state that was known for its leather tannerys and fabric mills and there are still pollution areas being cleaned up over practices from 100 years ago. The idea that buying "all natural" products is less harmful to the environment is more wishful thinking than reality.
01-04-2022, 08:04 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by reeftool Quote
I have a waxed cotton jacket that I bought several years ago. It didn't offer much protection for any extended period in the rain and also tended to get mildew on the inside of it.
Brand new or well-maintained Barbour jackets are very water-resistant, but they need frequent re-waxing (at least annually) and it can be quite a time-consuming and messy job. You also need a fair bit of space in which to work. Many years ago I had a Barbour and re-waxed it myself with their recommended product, per the instructions. It wasn't quite as effective as when new, but good nonetheless. You can send your jacket to them and they'll do it for you - at a price, of course. I'm sure when they do it, it's just as good as new. Their factory isn't too far from where I live (or it certainly used to be)...
01-04-2022, 09:49 AM - 1 Like   #27
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You make fine points @BigMackCam, and thanks for the well reasoned response. Yes, it's impossible to always be perfect in everything we do. Obviously the persistent chemicals are a touchy subject for me (I bit my tongue until Scotchgaurd came up), but I certainly know there are lots of other things I do that aren't great, and as you say we can't always research every decision (and follow through) to that level or our heads will spin.
01-05-2022, 01:24 AM   #28
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I would add kuhl to your list, they're American. They do a mix of jackets, some waxed, some with a lining. The waxed are very lightly waxed, so no more than showerproof. I personally have the Kollusion, lots of pockets but mine is currently unwaxed after washing. I've had no transfer problems but like I say, it comes lightly waxed.

I would say all waterproofs have drawbacks. Even the gore stuff eventually wets out and stops breathing or develops a fault or the rain finds a way in. The key for me as a cyclist and walker is to wear clothing that keeps you warm in the wet, so no cotton and a jacket that cuts out wind and put everything that shouldn't get wet in waterproof bags!
01-05-2022, 03:35 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by 3by2 Quote
The key for me as a cyclist and walker is to wear clothing that keeps you warm in the wet, so no cotton and a jacket that cuts out wind
So that brings me back to the merino wool Swandri.
01-05-2022, 04:14 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Arjay Bee Quote
So that brings me back to the merino wool Swandri.
Possibly, although most of us want something that stops us getting soaked in the main when just casually wondering about but out and about in the great outdoors it matters less than staying warm. Paramo in the UK works on the same principle, with a synthetic fleece and windproof/shower proof outer layer. Though they seem to have shifted slightly in their philosophy, it still the same principles at play.


i bought my first merino top a short while ago and I think my aim will be to replace ageing synthetic base layers with merino
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