Sure, virtual currency is convenient - but at what cost? I see it this way: "Come here, little girl, and get into my car - your mommy said it was ok, and I'll give you convenience!"

[BigMackCam]

Sure, virtual currency is convenient - but at what cost? I see it this way: "Come here, little girl, and get into my car - your mommy said it was ok, and I'll give you convenience!"

I'm not sure what precisely you mean by "virtual"... presumably, anything other than folding bills and coins - in which case I can say that, so far, it's cost me nothing in all the years I've been using it - except for the inconvenience of two fraudulent transactions to different credit cards, both of which were reversed and my cards replaced. I have, however, lost my wallet two or three times over the years, and the physical cash in them was gone for good. I reported the credit and debit cards lost, so my "virtual money" was safe, and had replacements for the cards in a few days...

Electronic payment - virtual money - isn't perfect, but if you structure your accounts with a view to spreading risk and limiting access to funds for security reasons, it's pretty safe. It's also generally convenient, and in some cases the only practical option...

EDIT: The only way to avoid "virtual" currency is to keep your cash at home under the bed. Of course, if your home is burgled or burns down, it's all gone... so maybe you spread your cash around several locations instead - but then it's not so easily accessible to you, and it's at risk in each of those storage locations. As soon as your money's deposited in a bank, it's part of the virtual money system. Electronic balances are backed up and mirrored so there's no single point of failure, and "virtual money" is more convenient to access in a variety of ways - and much safer, especially given the regulatory requirements for managing, ring-fencing and reporting on accounts and funds...

[ChrisPlatt]

What's a check?
Jokes aside, cheques are a thing of the past here.

Ten years ago people were telling me the same thing about film photography.

FWIW some sellers I deal with prefer personal checks.
Some do not accept any form of electronic payment.

Chris

[GeeEmm]

Ten years ago people were telling me the same thing about film photography.

Chris

And they were right! Sure, you can still buy and use film, but these are such a small minority they just don't figure in the brave new world of digital. I remember when transistors first came in to HiFi, people telling me that the sound was not as good as valves. Again, you can still play vinyl on a turntable with valves doing the amplification, and that seems to be enjoying a resurgence of sorts but digital still dominates. I think it is good that people can create a niche and, unlike King Canute, hold back the tide of technology - society needs people like this, they challenge the blind trend to modernity, and point up a value of what would otherwise be lost.

Regarding paying bills, I have very few direct debits for bills, my phone is probably the only one without looking, maybe my internet. Otherwise, all my bills are paid by me manually making the payment through going inro my bank account and making the payment monthly, quarterly, etc. For some reason I am uncomfortable with authorising someone to take money from my account without my explicit agreement.

Around here, a lot (most?) shops have signs saying 'contactless payment preferred' (ie pay by card), quite a few say cash not accepted.

[Just1MoreDave]

What's a check?
Jokes aside, cheques are a thing of the past here. You can't even get a bank cheque anymore, let alone a personal cheque.

My wife gave our 20ish niece and nephew each an estate settlement, and they didn't want checks at all. I think all the estate transactions up til then were by check, but they could not imagine simply writing some stuff on a piece of paper would work. To them, Apple gift cards are real money, Venmo balances are real money, checks are possibly a scam. So we do use checks now but it won't last.

Re: "virtual currency"

I use the term, "money" to refer to currency that has intrinsic value (gold, silver, nickel, copper) or notes representing a promise to pay money. Contrast that with "federal reserve notes", which have no value of their own, and aren't really even "notes" (there is a specific legal definition of that term) because they do not represent a promise to pay money. Try taking a paper dollar to the Richmond Federal Reserve Bank and try to cash it. If it were a note, they'd give you money in exchange; as it is, they probably won't let you in the building.

Other people use the term, "fiat currency" to mean that a document is imputed to have value merely because some governmental agency declares it to be so. So my question is, if you had a friend who was trillions of dollars in debt, had no plan to pay it back, and wanted to borrow from you, would you do it?

Like our recent experience with "virtual education", the word, "virtual" is used to mean something that appears to be real but is actually lacking in substance.

Re: "virtual currency"

I use the term, "money" to refer to currency that has intrinsic value (gold, silver, nickel, copper) or notes representing a promise to pay money. Contrast that with "federal reserve notes", which have no value of their own, and aren't really even "notes" (there is a specific legal definition of that term) because they do not represent a promise to pay money. Try taking a paper dollar to the Richmond Federal Reserve Bank and try to cash it. If it were a note, they'd give you money in exchange; as it is, they probably won't let you in the building.

Other people use the term, "fiat currency" to mean that a document is imputed to have value merely because some governmental agency declares it to be so. So my question is, if you had a friend who was trillions of dollars in debt, had no plan to pay it back, and wanted to borrow from you, would you do it?

[BigMackCam]

Re: "virtual currency"

Perhaps this is worth a "General Talk" thread of its own?

I use the term, "money" to refer to currency that has intrinsic value (gold, silver, nickel, copper) or notes representing a promise to pay money. Contrast that with "federal reserve notes", which have no value of their own, and aren't really even "notes" (there is a specific legal definition of that term) because they do not represent a promise to pay money. Try taking a paper dollar to the Richmond Federal Reserve Bank and try to cash it. If it were a note, they'd give you money in exchange; as it is, they probably won't let you in the building.

Try finding a photographic store (or any other store or service provider) who'll let you pay in commodities such as gold, silver, nickel and copper. They only accept banknotes and coins in the local currency, or electronic payment by debit or credit card (all of which they consider to be the same thing).

Other people use the term, "fiat currency" to mean that a document is imputed to have value merely because some governmental agency declares it to be so. So my question is, if you had a friend who was trillions of dollars in debt, had no plan to pay it back, and wanted to borrow from you, would you do it?

Like our recent experience with "virtual education", the word, "virtual" is used to mean something that appears to be real but is actually lacking in substance.

I'm not sure what you're getting at... nor how it relates to your preference for cash versus my preference in using a range of electronic payments methods - and cash, on occasion - when most convenient or necessary. If henceforth you're going to convert all your "virtual money" into physical assets in the form of commodities such as metals, good luck with using them to pay for anything legitimate, not to mention the volatility in day-to-day and long-term pricing against the base currency your retailers and service providers will all expect to be paid in. Even if a store did allow you to pay for a camera with a gold bar, just for the fun and publicity of it, guess what? They're going to give you your change in dollars (if they keep enough of them in the store)

[wadge22]

@dlhawes
It's money because you can pay your taxes with it. Any alternatives will need to be converted back to money when tax time comes around.
Welcome to society.

[Just1MoreDave]

...f henceforth you're going to convert all your "virtual money" into physical assets in the form of commodities such as metals, good luck with using them to pay for anything legitimate, not to mention the volatility in day-to-day and long-term pricing against the base currency your retailers and service providers will all expect to be paid in. Even if a store did allow you to pay for a camera with a gold bar, just for the fun and publicity of it, guess what? They're going to give you your change in dollars (if they keep enough of them in the store)

Exactly. The dollar and other currencies have been floating along since 1971, with people still willing to use it as a preferred method of exchange. Gold, silver or even the various cryptocurrencies are discussed in terms of their value relative to dollars. The dollar may be only supported by faith (or ignorance) but people think it has value. Somewhat like measurement systems, you only want to use one, and the others are cumbersome approximations relative to the one you want to use.

The problem with virtual currencies is that "the authorities" can turn them off if they decide you are not thinking correctly, have too large a nose, or the wrong color skin. Just like the way they seize the assets of people accuses of certain crimes, or impose "sanctions" on foreigners who are involved in disfavored activities. Ain't nuthin' free, and the cost of convenience is, well, you'll find out soon enough, I reckon.

[BigMackCam]

The problem with virtual currencies is that "the authorities" can turn them off if they decide you are not thinking correctly, have too large a nose, or the wrong color skin. Just like the way they seize the assets of people accuses of certain crimes, or impose "sanctions" on foreigners who are involved in disfavored activities.

Limiting individuals' and groups' access to electronically-managed funds is certainly possible and happens. Of course, it was possible and happened long before currencies were de-coupled from gold reserves and money managed electronically. However, putting such limitations into large-scale or wholesale effect against law-abiding citizens in a civilised society is actually rather difficult and has inherent, potentially catastrophic risks - but we're drifting into politics, including civil and international war scenarios... well outside the realms - and against the rules - of these forums; so, best we stop there

Ain't nuthin' free, and the cost of convenience is, well, you'll find out soon enough, I reckon.

Every system or sub-system of money - whether virtual or physical - is subject to risk factors.... even a stash of gold coins has security and volatility risk - a convincing scammer or dedicated, persistent thief can defraud you of your electronic money and squirrelled-away krugerrands alike, and the monetary worth of anything - cash, equity, security, commodity, derivative - is governed by and subject to supply and demand, which changes second by second in the global financial markets. If and when society fails, your cash or gold are going to be as worthless as virtual money in practical terms. People are going to be interested in your stores of food, water, sanitary products, medicines, fuel, clothing... perhaps the shelter and safety you can provide (whether by invitation or force), or the practical skills and services you can offer; not your piles of cash or gold. Some of those - the physical items essential to healthy living - might be good assets to stockpile for future bartering if you can store them in quanity for long enough and secure them adequately, but they're not much good to you in the present day when it comes to paying your phone bill, settling your taxes, paying for medical treatment, getting your car serviced, buying that fancy new camera or lens etc.

To avoid or navigate the forthcoming doom you portend, what do you propose as a practical, liquid, easily-transportable / transferrable, low-risk alternative to "virtual money" that would allow individuals to pay for essential and discretionary services and products on a day-to-day basis in the here and now?

[Lord Lucan]

what do you propose as a practical, liquid, easily-transportable / transferrable, low-risk alternative to "virtual money" that would allow individuals to pay for essential and discretionary services and products on a day-to-day basis in the here and now?

We managed on cash until well within my living memory. I was in my teens before my father had a bank account. I was paid cash in my first job; it was issued in a brown envelope that had numerous holes in it, and the pay clerk would arrange the notes and coins so that all could be seen and checked by yourself before you opened it.

I remember, when credit cards were introduced, it being claimed (among other things) they would eliminate most financial crime, which in in those days was either armed bank robbery, holding up sub-post offices, or mugging old ladies. But crime followed the rest of us on-line because criminals can also adapt with the times, and it is now possible to steal someone's entire savings at the click of a mouse button (much more profitable than mugging old ladies), and with contactless cards it has become worth mugging people again anyway.

[BigMackCam]

We managed on cash until well within my living memory. I was in my teens before my father had a bank account. I was paid cash in my first job; it was issued in a brown envelope that had numerous holes in it, and the pay clerk would arrange the notes and coins so that all could be seen and checked by yourself before you opened it.

I remember, when credit cards were introduced, it being claimed (among other things) they would eliminate most financial crime, which in in those days was either armed bank robbery, holding up sub-post offices, or mugging old ladies. But crime followed the rest of us on-line because criminals can also adapt with the times, and it is now possible to steal someone's entire savings at the click of a mouse button (much more profitable than mugging old ladies), and with contactless cards it has become worth mugging people again anyway.

The section of my post you quoted was composed in context of an overall response to @dlhawes and his dislike / distrust of "virtual money"... That said:

I've no problem with cash. The thing is, where do you keep it? If you keep it in the bank, building society, credit union, post office, managed fund etc., it immediately becomes part of the supposedly-evil, insecure virtual money system (they don't neatly stack all of your notes in a safe at that branch with a post-it note on them to say they're yours... they pool the notes, update your electronic account balance, move the notes to wherever they're needed within the bank's network and deposit the rest with central banks, then invest most of the customer's money electronically in overnight deposits and other short-term investments). If you keep it at home, it's secure until you're burgled or your house burns down. Then it's gone - and anything beyond a very small, insignificant amount is unlikely to be covered by home insurance. So, let's say you keep it in one of the afore-mentioned electronically-managed, virtual money vehicles and withdraw it as you need it... Well, folks are still mugged for their cash, not just their contactless payment cards. It's always been worthwhile for thieves to mug people, whatever form of money or payment methods they carry (including valuables that can be sold on the black market - to shady or unwitting individuals - for quick cash, such as smartphones, jewellery, watches, handbags, even trainers ). Folks are mugged right at the ATM as they take their cash. And by the way, once that cash is stolen, it's very difficult to trace where and by whom it's used. With electronic payment methods and fraudulent account activity, at least there's a trail that sometimes leads to identification of the individuals or groups responsible (for example, CCTV footage from shops where a card was used, matched by date and time stamp to the transaction). Banks and credit card providers will often refund fraudulent payments and withdrawals if the account holder has taken reasonable precautions, and reported any theft of cards or funds as soon as they become aware. At the very least, they'll put a stop on cards and monitor accounts for suspicious activity.

I like cash, but this notion that it's more secure, dependable and tangible than "virtual money" just doesn't stack up, particularly in today's society. Both have benefits and risks. Many of the risks of "virtual money" apply to cash too - including cyber-theft - as soon as it's stored in some form of account (because then it is "virtual money")... and if, instead, you keep it all at home under the bed or floor-boards, it's subject to other risks already mentioned.

So I return to my previous question...

What's a practical, liquid, easily-transportable / transferable, low-risk alternative to "virtual money" that would allow us to pay for essential and discretionary services and products on a day-to-day basis in the here and now?

It's largely a rhetorical question, because I don't think there is one... though I'd genuinely love to know of an alternative that fits that profile. If such a solution exists, I may well decide to use it myself...

[gaweidert]

What's a check?
Jokes aside, cheques are a thing of the past here. You can't even get a bank cheque anymore, let alone a personal cheque.

Most online shopping has been stress free for me. I did buy two very expensive tires for my son's car, which had me a bit worried as the supplier claimed to be a New Zealand based supplier but shipped from Australia. But, tires arrived and were correct, so no complaints after the initial stress.
And, probably 2 years ago I ordered a new filter for the fridge and the company (again Australian) never shipped it but took my money. Got the bank to do a credit card refund for that one.

I also bought our new kitchen joinery online and it all turned up when they said it would. That was probably my largest online shopping buy thus far. One panel out of the more than 200 panels arrived with a scratch, and one drawer runner had a ding, and they replaced those two parts promptly and at no cost. Apart from that, there was exactly one screw hole that did not align, so pretty impressive really!

Now, better check with the courier to see when my wine order will arrive.

After three bouts of ID theft. I have gone back to checks for almost all my bill paying. Been pretty quiet ever since. Even my bank got hacked and someone drained $1,200 out or my checking account using a simulated ATM card. This happened while on the road and they froze my account until they could mail me a new card "in five to seven business days". I found out when I called to find out why my ATM card would not work. I don't think that the person on the other end was supposed to tell me about the hack.


I still use cash for a lot of purchases too. Amazing how that keeps my budget under control. A few weeks ago there was a major system outage in the US where stores could only process cash transactions over a period of several hours. Any transaction being done a card of any sort or by phone had trouble getting through. The lines got real long real fast. Having cash to buy what I needed got me into a special line and out of the store PDQ.