[reeftool]

Been using Firefox for a long time now. Unfortunately, there are still some websites that insist on IE and also Windows. I use IE only on rare occasions.

[séamuis]

Been using Firefox for a long time now. Unfortunately, there are still some websites that insist on IE and also Windows. I use IE only on rare occasions.

what websites still insist on IE? I haven't had IE installed in two years and I have never come across such a site.

[cpopham]

I never said FF was perfect, do not make assumptions. <snip> nobody can deny that FF is a far better browser

I apologise for the unwarranted assumption. I certainly agree with you 100% that Firefox is a 'better' browser than IE though.

I knew a SysAdmin type would chastise me..... I regularly check out a few SysAdmin forums on the latest control freak buzz - so I know their problem. I also note that many of them regard users as fools - not a good attitude either IMHO.

I'm not actually a sysadmin type. What I am is a programmer who gets fed up with end users trying to get me to make various end runs around policies for them (usually with respect to control of information), and then complain bitterly when I won't. It's given me a lot of sympathy for the admin types, especially the very good ones I have seen badmouthed by people who didn't get their way.

I probably projected this a bit much on you, and I apologise for the tone of my previous posting, it was a bit over the top, really.

But to answer your criticisms - I have tried to talk to them - repeatedly! (you should see my file on it....). I have written letters with all the justification, countersigned by my dept head. I've even spoken on the phone to the head of IT, but been told it is not policy.

I apologise - I probably should have assumed you would have already tried this.
I know now you probably already know this - but just remember it might be the department head's personal policy. Maybe his staff hate it, and have been trying to convince him to change it, without success - but in the mean time, it's their jobs to enforce it. They may even hate enforcing it. Or, as you indicate, they could be the authoritarian types who like that sort of thing.

To take it one step furthur, at my original job (as a student) performing desktop support, the company had a 'policy' that everyone would have the same crappy computers with crappy 15" monitors. On a number of occasions I watched / heard someone screaming or being otherwise very rude to my boss (head of IT), and he would sit there politely and take it. Shortly after the first time I saw it, I learned he kept a log of complaints, and would routinely package them up, along with costings to rectify the situation and his estimate of the benefit to the business - pretty much a perfectly presented case for improvement. Every single time he was knocked back by more senior management.

I have always had a lot of respect for that man, and the professionalism he showed in the way he ran his department. I never once saw him try to deflect blame from himself, even though it wasn't his fault. Sometimes things aren't always as they seem...

Then again, sometimes they are, and you're dealing with clueless morons on a power trip...

And as for wasting money - they waste money too by not consulting with users about impacts of their policy. My bypassing of their ignorant policy increases productivity for a small expense of finding the solution.

Absolutely true, but since it's done via a roundabout way you'll never be able to show them just how much money it saves

If policy makers set foot in a real work environment dealing with clients they might set policy more appropriately!

I certainly do not disagree with you there!

[song_hm]

Firefox. seriously, just use Firefox and not worry about it. why doesn't everyone use Firefox anyway? if I'm not browsing with Firefox its Songbird (Mozilla). its completely beyond my comprehension , why people still use IE. Microsoft makes good products, and I still use Win XP, but IE is now and always has been trash.

Don't be lulled into a false sense of Firefox security, check out this article, and this, and this.

Do you use grease monkey with Firefox? check this article.

Opera user? Read this.

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Last edited by song_hm; 12-17-2008 at 10:35 PM.

[stewart_photo]

For anyone who hasn't heard about this, experts are recommending switching to another browser.
Here's the link; Major flaw revealed in Internet Explorer; users urged to switch : Christopher Null : Yahoo! Tech

As usual, this was just a lot of hype over nothing. First of all, this wasn't a "flaw" in Internet Explorer as the author of this article so cutely put it. Instead, it was normal programming code which someone figured out how to manipulate for malicious purposes. Similar programming code (password management) in other browsers could be manipulated just as easily. Thus, calling this a flaw in IE was like saying one particular vehicle is defective because kids figured out how to let air out of automobile tires as a prank.

Second, there never was much of a threat outside the online gaming community. This malicious code was only found on sites serving online games and the code used only to steal online gaming passwords to pose as other users within the games. The malicious code "could" have been adapted to steal other passwords stored or entered using the browser, but, in spite of the rantings of doomsayers and anti-Microsoft crowd, that didn't happen. And it's not going to happen given Microsoft has already came out with an automatic update for Internet Explorer to avoid that possibility.

Anyway, looking at the facts, I can't believe any ligitimate security expert, without a bias towards alternative browsers, would use this situation to urge anyone to either stop using Internet Explorer or switch from it to another browser. However, I certainly do understand why those advocating alternative browsers might. Most of those relish any opportunity to trash Internet Explorer (and/or Microsoft) and promote their favorite browser. And the more fanatical among them are never above using exaggerations or outright deceptions to do so. Just look at how many have used this situation for that exact purpose without any reasoned consideration of the facts.

stewart

[stewart_photo]

I use Mozilla Firefox on my personal computers. I was using it at work until I got a nasty email telling me to delete it from my laptop immediately as it was a security risk to the Company's assets! Oh well, it's their machine and their system and they will be the losers. Most of our work is done through a VPN so maybe they will be alright - I'm not sure.

Most IT professionals (and hence their employers - the company) urge the use of one particular browser in the workplace since (1) that allows them to focus on a single product (it's issues and solutions) instead of any number of half-baked, unfamiliar, products employees might decide to install and (2) other applications on the server (monitor programs, security tools, virus filters, etc) are known to work reliably with Internet Explorer. Given their less familiar characteristics and potential incompatibilities with server tools, alternative browsers might indeed pose a security threat to the company's computers.

Internet Explorer is often picked as that browser because it's the most widely supported browser product by far - by other computer applications, server tools, Microsoft, other IT professionals, and general users. And it will be a very long time before any alternative circumvents that massive momentum behind Internet Explorer.

By the way, this (standardization & widespread support) is exactly why I have only one browser (Internet Explorer) installed on the three computers (business, personal, and wife's) at home.

stewart

[séamuis]

Don't be lulled into a false sense of Firefox security, check out this article, and this, and this.

Do you use grease monkey with Firefox? check this article.

Opera user? Read this.

once again I never said that FF was perfectly safe, but I take precautions. first of all I do not have my browser save my passwords, second I cant argue with security flaws being patched. whats wrong with that? if anything that gives me more confidence in FF and the mozilla team, because they recognize threats and offer a good system for patching them the way MS does. and as for the third link you provided:

'Mozilla Firefox: In 2008, Mozilla patched 10 vulnerabilities that could be used by remote attackers to execute arbitrary code via buffer overflow, malformed URI links, documents, JavaScript and third party tools.'

that list includes some of the most used apps on the planet of course there are going to be unknown security risks that come to light, its only natural that such apps make the list.

I use very few addons. I do not use greasemonkey, and I have been using NoScript (javascript blocker) for quite some time. I use a lot of bookmarks, and FF has come a long way in URL checking (anti-phishing) still not perfect, but I can guarantee its safer than the average persons IE setup. just because I speak highly of FF (and rightly so) doesn't mean I am naive and foolish.

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Last edited by séamuis; 12-18-2008 at 03:08 AM.

[Spyder]

As usual, this was just a lot of hype over nothing. First of all, this wasn't a "flaw" in Internet Explorer as the author of this article so cutely put it. Instead, it was normal programming code which someone figured out how to manipulate for malicious purposes.
stewart

It would still be a flaw even if it had no security implications. To quote from the security advisory (Microsoft Security Bulletin MS08-078 - Critical: Security Update for Internet Explorer (960714)):

A remote code execution vulnerability exists as an invalid pointer reference in the data binding function of Internet Explorer. When data binding is enabled (which is the default state), it is possible under certain conditions for an object to be released without updating the array length, leaving the potential to access the deleted object's memory space. This can cause Internet Explorer to exit unexpectedly, in a state that is exploitable.

Ignoring the remote code execution, this still causes IE to crash and is therefore a flaw, bug, defect, whatever you want to call it. Nobody deliberately writes code with use-after-free bugs in it.

Internet Explorer is often picked as that browser because it's the most widely supported browser product by far

It's more likely it's picked as it's the default browser that comes with most people's new machines, and they won't be bothered to change it even if they knew alternatives existed. You can hardly argue IE is the technically superior browser given that it's still by far the least standards compliant browser out there, and (in my opinion) it still trails in usability - it's finally got tabbed browsing but I'm still not aware of a way of making it remember what tabs you had open between restarts.

[MoiVous]

<RANT MODE>

Most IT professionals (and hence their employers - the company) urge the use of one particular browser in the workplace since (1) that allows them to focus on a single product (it's issues and solutions) instead of any number of half-baked, unfamiliar, products employees might decide to install and (2) other applications on the server (monitor programs, security tools, virus filters, etc) are known to work reliably with Internet Explorer. Given their less familiar characteristics and potential incompatibilities with server tools, alternative browsers might indeed pose a security threat to the company's computers.

Not quite. The company will have MSCE staff, who will push the MS product and of course, IT support costs money, so companies choose a one size fits all solution without investigating alternatives - Buy it all from MS for a discount they hear. And BTW the term half baked is emotive - the non-MS browser and office products are not half baked!

However, with the rise in cloud computing and the non-OS specific paradigm for applications being driven by companies such as Google (Google Gears, Picassa) and Sun (Star Office), we are changing the way we use computers. The model you suggest is unlikely to survive. Even MS are starting to look at cloud computing models. When Google can offer almost 10GB of storage online to any user as well as office and imaging tools - and all for free, then your model is starting to look decidely unwell.

And the aim of IT departments is to provide services for users to productively work in their industries - not for workers to genuflect in the direction of the IT dept.

Also, speaking of servers, most web servers still run Unix flavours - not Windows. Must say something about stability don't you think?

Internet Explorer is often picked as that browser because it's the most widely supported browser product by far - by other computer applications, server tools, Microsoft, other IT professionals, and general users. And it will be a very long time before any alternative circumvents that massive momentum behind Internet Explorer.

Only by default after Netscape was virtually killed off in the 90's. However, the alternative browsers are rising again. FF is approaching 30% of users in my experience, and has been rising more rapidly since FF3 was released. Most of the IT professionals I know prefer FF to IE - but that could be a geek thing. The momentum you mention is just that - there is no technical reason for IE to dominate. It is historical. But the drift from IE is occuring more rapidly.

FF, Opera and Safari are produced by IT professionals who see the faults in IE and choose to find better solutions. Tabs were not created by MS, or anti-phishing, or speed dial. FF is actually derived from Netscape, which used to dominate the browser market. Opera was developed by a Norwegian telecom and has many innovations the others copy. Chrome (derived from Apples Safari in the first instance) is pushing the browser envelope even further, with discrete threads for each tab making the app even more stable.

IE is not standards compliant either. How does that make an environment stable? Remember, a browser is supposed to be rendering HTML in a consistent manner. Only IE7 and IE8 have approached that - and not completely. FF, Opera and Safari have done that almost since the beginning. And they pass the ACID2 and Acid3 browser tests better (some a bit better than others, but better than IE)

By the way, this (standardization & widespread support) is exactly why I have only one browser (Internet Explorer) installed on the three computers (business, personal, and wife's) at home.

So according to your model, we should all drive one make of car, all eat the same cereal, all use one camera brand and all have one name. Doesn't work for me. I won't be changing my name.....

</RANT MODE>

[séamuis]

well said Chris.

[RoxnDox]

what websites still insist on IE? I haven't had IE installed in two years and I have never come across such a site.

Well, you don't have access to it, but there are a number of online "training" sites administered by the US Dept of the Interior (DOI), which we are required to use every year for various mandatory courses. These sites DO NOT (personal experience) work under FF, they are also reported by others to not work in Opera. They work properly ONLY in IE, and then only if you loosen the security settings to a ridiculous degree. Of course, they were written by developers using MS tools exclusively, and since IE is the official DOI web browser they don't really care if it works on anything else.

We're allowed to install other browsers on work computers, just with a caveat of no official support for them.

Jim

[navcom]

I'd love to use Firefox if it would only stop resetting itself every 7-30 days! It's happened on the last couple of releases. I"m not a computer expert, but FF will randomly just reset....delete all my favorites and act like I just installed it 2 minutes ago. Sometimes it will do this the next day, sometimes it takes about 30 days. I can't function like that so I always end up back with IE.

It's a full version and I"ve reinstalled it several times. I finally just gave up.

I know it's not on topic but there seems to be some knoweldgable computer-savvy folks here....anyone have a clue what the heck is going on?

[séamuis]

I'd love to use Firefox if it would only stop resetting itself every 7-30 days! It's happened on the last couple of releases. I"m not a computer expert, but FF will randomly just reset....delete all my favorites and act like I just installed it 2 minutes ago. Sometimes it will do this the next day, sometimes it takes about 30 days. I can't function like that so I always end up back with IE.

It's a full version and I"ve reinstalled it several times. I finally just gave up.

I know it's not on topic but there seems to be some knoweldgable computer-savvy folks here....anyone have a clue what the heck is going on?

unfortunately, no I don't. that is strange. I do hope someone can help you, as FF is a hell of a browser.

[MoiVous]

I'd love to use Firefox if it would only stop resetting itself every 7-30 days! It's happened on the last couple of releases. I"m not a computer expert, but FF will randomly just reset....delete all my favorites and act like I just installed it 2 minutes ago. Sometimes it will do this the next day, sometimes it takes about 30 days. I can't function like that so I always end up back with IE.

It's a full version and I"ve reinstalled it several times. I finally just gave up.

I know it's not on topic but there seems to be some knoweldgable computer-savvy folks here....anyone have a clue what the heck is going on?

There are a lot of options here, and it will depend a lot on the version of FF you were running as well. Here are some possibilities:

• Within FF there is a security option (usually manual) that clears private data (browsing history usually). This can be set to do this each time, or manually
• If you've downloaded an FF add-on (plug-in in IE parlance) for secure/private browsing that may be doing something similar
• You may have a security app (virus scanner etc) that is clearing these setting for you or resetting your system to a previous date
• If your using a work PC, there may be a group policy that resets private data. There are stacks of these and its beyond the scope of this forum or someone thousands of miles away and not sitting in front of your PC.....
• Find a friendly local geek to help or send me a PM if you'd like to discuss this more with specifics.......

Don't forget that FF is not the only browser out there. I use them all as part of my web page testing.....

• Opera is very good. The add-ons aren't as rich, but it solid and stable.
• Safari has some know security glitches, but in every other respect renders HTML very well and like most Apple apps looks good
• Chrome is based partly on Safari (it shares some of the core routines), but renders pages very well and has a fairly simple interface. Its bookmarks and favourites need to be polished but its quite slick.

BTW, all of the browsers I've listed above will not work perfectly if the pages you visit are designed for IE. They are all standards compliant. Unfortunately, many pages are written for IE with IEcentric HTML. If you visit lots of IEcentric pages, or have a corporate web page written for IE, you'll have problems. There is an FF add on that uses the IE rendering engine within FF (IEtab) that is very good. But it means your getting the unsecured IE running on your system in a roundabout way.

Good luck!

Now lets get back to taking pictures!

[navcom]

There are a lot of options here, and it will depend a lot on the version of FF you were running as well. Here are some possibilities:

Thanks alot! I'll look into these options. I'll need to reinstall again as I uninstalled it awhile back.