Canon: fear, uncertainty and doubt

jsherman999 · 12-20-2008, 11:22 AM

Lots of angst in the Canon dpreview forum these days over the 'black dot' problem, banding, etc with the new 5D model.

T.O.P, Pop Photo, other publications and online sources are noticing the problems. Now Canon has issued a press release linked on the front page of dpreview stating that they're 'looking into' the problem.

See, when you buy a < $1000 K20D and it isn't perfect in your eyes, at least you don't want to commit harakiri like the Canonites seem to be doing over the 5D

Not Whiners and Complainers - TRUTH TELLERS [Page 1]: Canon EOS-1D / 1Ds / 5D Forum: Digital Photography Review

(plus, as we all know, the K20D is pretty much perfect.)

.

Last edited by jsherman999; 12-20-2008 at 11:41 AM.

ftpaddict · 12-20-2008, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by jsherman999

(plus, as we all know, the K20D is pretty much perfect.)

Not quite, but Canon users are right to complain after having shelled out so much $$$ to compensate for their small %@(*$.

séamuis · 12-20-2008, 11:33 AM

I like the last post. there are some people here who should take note.

'Oh I agree that it is a real issue.

My problem is with the people that MUST have the camera the nano-second it comes out, and then are shocked that there is some bug in it when the get it, and then write angry messages on the internet about it.
The fact is that anything this complex is very likely to have issues on day 1. If you don't want to deal with that wait a bit for the quirks to get found and worked out. THEN buy it,
That is why new technology is called the bleeding edge.'

Gooshin · 12-20-2008, 11:33 AM

its harakiri but whatever

it would be intresting to know how much dpreviews population represents the actual market for the 5Dii

ftpaddict · 12-20-2008, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Someone on the DPR forums

My problem is with the people that MUST have the camera the nano-second it comes out, and then are shocked that there is some bug in it when the get it, and then write angry messages on the internet about it.
The fact is that anything this complex is very likely to have issues on day 1. If you don't want to deal with that wait a bit for the quirks to get found and worked out. THEN buy it,
That is why new technology is called the bleeding edge.

Have a read here: Bad Technology: A Call for Revolution Against Beta Culture

Nick1946 · 12-20-2008, 03:41 PM

Who cares----it's Canon

reeftool · 12-20-2008, 04:05 PM

New products have issues sometimes. I won't fault a company for making a less than perfect product as long as they fix the problem. All the testing done on a product never seems to be a total substitute for real world use. However, if they don't or can't come up with a fix then it could really hurt them. Thats one of the risks of buying newest, latest and greatest thing. Sometimes it doesn't work. Maybe this will shut up some of the whiners in here who want to sell their gear and go Canon.

**monochrome** · 12-20-2008, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by ftpaddict

Have a read here: Bad Technology: A Call for Revolution Against Beta Culture

From my own experience with a global company, it is considered good business management to intentionally bring the first version of a product to market less than fully functional and less than optimized for its designed use.

Frequently the small refinements that would make a product perfect take the most time and engineering expense to create, yet have utility for a comparatively small number of (very sophisticated and vocal) users.

Following the principle that capital is scarce and all new product developments compete against each other for allocations of the last dollar of development capital, companies maximize market share by introducing a larger number of less-than-perfect products, and improving them in later versions. In this way a company receives a better return on the initial round of invested capital for each product (and a higher return on invested capital overall)..

The company then uses cash flow from sales of the first version each product to make the final design refinements (that were always planned anyway) and characterizes them as "improvements" in later versions, upgrades or product extensions.

A company receives further benefit by follow-on sales to first-adopter purchasers of the initial version.

Cynical, yes, but considered to be good business decisions.

maleek · 12-20-2008, 04:40 PM

I think it's wise to an extent just to wait one or two months just to see if there is any potential issue with the camera one is planning on buying. By that time people should have gotten somewhat accustomed to the product, the obligatory whining have been put into perspective and reviews have gotten out.

The 5D is a hell of a camera. Canon will probably sort things out with the new model, there is to much prestige to loose and potential customers going with Nikon.

**Sailor** · 12-20-2008, 05:42 PM

Interesting. Seems like this little drama plays out at the introduction of any new camera, although this could have been worse. It might have been white!

No doubt, we'll see versions of this "conversation" when the "K30D" makes its appearance. Perhaps, for the sake of efficiency, we should simply copy the linked thread and substitute the term "K30D" for the Canon nameplate - thus saving valuable time.

Jer

Mike Cash · 12-20-2008, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

The company then uses cash flow from sales of the first version each product to make the final design refinements (that were always planned anyway) and characterizes them as "improvements" in later versions, upgrades or product extensions.

I kinda-sorta figured that out with my last camera prior to coming to Pentax....an Olympus P&S that really needed some annoying bugs fixed. Unfortunately it had no provisions for firmware upgrade and I resolved that for any future camera purchase firmware upgrade capability would be an absolute requirement. Didn't care how nice the product was, if the maker didn't build in some method of implementing at least firmware fixes then I didn't want any part of it.

12-20-2008, 11:22 AM	#1
jsherman999 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,237	Canon: fear, uncertainty and doubt Lots of angst in the Canon dpreview forum these days over the 'black dot' problem, banding, etc with the new 5D model. T.O.P, Pop Photo, other publications and online sources are noticing the problems. Now Canon has issued a press release linked on the front page of dpreview stating that they're 'looking into' the problem. See, when you buy a < $1000 K20D and it isn't perfect in your eyes, at least you don't want to commit harakiri like the Canonites seem to be doing over the 5D Not Whiners and Complainers - TRUTH TELLERS [Page 1]: Canon EOS-1D / 1Ds / 5D Forum: Digital Photography Review (plus, as we all know, the K20D is pretty much perfect.) . Last edited by jsherman999; 12-20-2008 at 11:41 AM.

12-20-2008, 04:23 PM	#8
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Scarce Capital and good business decisions Originally posted by ftpaddict Have a read here: Bad Technology: A Call for Revolution Against Beta Culture From my own experience with a global company, it is considered good business management to intentionally bring the first version of a product to market less than fully functional and less than optimized for its designed use. Frequently the small refinements that would make a product perfect take the most time and engineering expense to create, yet have utility for a comparatively small number of (very sophisticated and vocal) users. Following the principle that capital is scarce and all new product developments compete against each other for allocations of the last dollar of development capital, companies maximize market share by introducing a larger number of less-than-perfect products, and improving them in later versions. In this way a company receives a better return on the initial round of invested capital for each product (and a higher return on invested capital overall).. The company then uses cash flow from sales of the first version each product to make the final design refinements (that were always planned anyway) and characterizes them as "improvements" in later versions, upgrades or product extensions. A company receives further benefit by follow-on sales to first-adopter purchasers of the initial version. Cynical, yes, but considered to be good business decisions. Last edited by monochrome; 12-20-2008 at 05:15 PM.

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12-20-2008, 11:27 AM	#2
ftpaddict Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Yurp Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,666	Originally posted by jsherman999 (plus, as we all know, the K20D is pretty much perfect.) Not quite, but Canon users are right to complain after having shelled out so much $$$ to compensate for their small %@(*$.

12-20-2008, 11:33 AM	#3
séamuis Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H. Posts: 5,979	I like the last post. there are some people here who should take note. 'Oh I agree that it is a real issue. My problem is with the people that MUST have the camera the nano-second it comes out, and then are shocked that there is some bug in it when the get it, and then write angry messages on the internet about it. The fact is that anything this complex is very likely to have issues on day 1. If you don't want to deal with that wait a bit for the quirks to get found and worked out. THEN buy it, That is why new technology is called the bleeding edge.'

12-20-2008, 11:33 AM	#4
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	its harakiri but whatever it would be intresting to know how much dpreviews population represents the actual market for the 5Dii

12-20-2008, 12:37 PM	#5
ftpaddict Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Yurp Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,666	Originally posted by Someone on the DPR forums My problem is with the people that MUST have the camera the nano-second it comes out, and then are shocked that there is some bug in it when the get it, and then write angry messages on the internet about it. The fact is that anything this complex is very likely to have issues on day 1. If you don't want to deal with that wait a bit for the quirks to get found and worked out. THEN buy it, That is why new technology is called the bleeding edge. Have a read here: Bad Technology: A Call for Revolution Against Beta Culture

12-20-2008, 03:41 PM	#6
Nick1946 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NW Arkansas Photos: Gallery Posts: 130	Who cares----it's Canon

12-20-2008, 04:05 PM	#7
reeftool Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate New York Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,555	New products have issues sometimes. I won't fault a company for making a less than perfect product as long as they fix the problem. All the testing done on a product never seems to be a total substitute for real world use. However, if they don't or can't come up with a fix then it could really hurt them. Thats one of the risks of buying newest, latest and greatest thing. Sometimes it doesn't work. Maybe this will shut up some of the whiners in here who want to sell their gear and go Canon.

12-20-2008, 04:40 PM	#9
maleek Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Karlstad, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 222	I think it's wise to an extent just to wait one or two months just to see if there is any potential issue with the camera one is planning on buying. By that time people should have gotten somewhat accustomed to the product, the obligatory whining have been put into perspective and reviews have gotten out. The 5D is a hell of a camera. Canon will probably sort things out with the new model, there is to much prestige to loose and potential customers going with Nikon.

12-20-2008, 05:42 PM	#10
Sailor Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Coastal Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 26,203	Interesting. Seems like this little drama plays out at the introduction of any new camera, although this could have been worse. It might have been white! No doubt, we'll see versions of this "conversation" when the "K30D" makes its appearance. Perhaps, for the sake of efficiency, we should simply copy the linked thread and substitute the term "K30D" for the Canon nameplate - thus saving valuable time. Jer

12-20-2008, 05:45 PM	#11
Mike Cash Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Japan Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,950	Originally posted by monochrome The company then uses cash flow from sales of the first version each product to make the final design refinements (that were always planned anyway) and characterizes them as "improvements" in later versions, upgrades or product extensions. I kinda-sorta figured that out with my last camera prior to coming to Pentax....an Olympus P&S that really needed some annoying bugs fixed. Unfortunately it had no provisions for firmware upgrade and I resolved that for any future camera purchase firmware upgrade capability would be an absolute requirement. Didn't care how nice the product was, if the maker didn't build in some method of implementing at least firmware fixes then I didn't want any part of it.