[baltochef920]

Tipping is not common at all in Australia, unless it's far different in Melbourne than it is everywhere else.

I hate tipping. There are so many service industries that a person would never think of tipping the employee, why should wait staff be any different?

People should be paid a wage by their employer, and the cost factored into the product. A tip is for service above and beyond the job at hand. It should never be *expected*. It devalues the whole idea.

Exactly!!!!

[rparmar]

Yeah - good point, why do waiting staff get singled out?

Because they get a lot less money than the effing auto mechanic or effing dentist. This takes very little thought to figure out. Waiting is a very difficult job and gets paid very little in N.America where the custom is to tip 15-20%. If you are not doing this you are being a cheap-ass and should eat at home. Simple as.

Or move to a different country where wait staff get paid like regular workers and you don't have the same societal expectation to tip.

In cases where the service has been execrable and the food has been good, I have been known to walk to the kitchen and tip the cooks. In cases where it is obvious the management have not trained their staff I have told said staff how to get their own back.

Here in Europe dining out is generally twice as expensive and everyone gets paid much better. So tipping is not expected. Except in France, but they are just pretentious.

[baltochef920]

Because they get a lot less money than the effing auto mechanic or effing dentist. This takes very little thought to figure out. Waiting is a very difficult job and gets paid very little in N.America where the custom is to tip 15-20%. If you are not doing this you are being a cheap-ass and should eat at home. Simple as.

Or move to a different country where wait staff get paid like regular workers and you don't have the same societal expectation to tip.

In cases where the service has been execrable and the food has been good, I have been known to walk to the kitchen and tip the cooks. In cases where it is obvious the management have not trained their staff I have told said staff how to get their own back.

Here in Europe dining out is generally twice as expensive and everyone gets paid much better.So tipping is not expected. Except in France, but they are just pretentious.

Thank You!! Thank You!!

As an American chef I can tell you that Americans are spoiled rotten with artificially low menu prices in restaurants..Just as we have had very low gasoline prices compared to the rest of the world, so have our dining out costs been much lower than the rest of the world..When the bubble bursts, as it eventually must, it will be a bitter pill to swallow..Look at how Americans screamed and complained last year when gasoline prices rose to $4.00 per gallon..People in Europe and Asia have been paying that much, or more, for a gallon of gasoline for 30-40 years..

Over 50% of the food produced and sold at the wholesale level in the United States goes not to grocery stores and fine dining restaurants, but to feed the voracious maw of the chain restaurant industry..To the Bob Evan's, the Howard Johnson's, the Taco Bell's, the McDonalds's the Wendy's, the Red Lobster's, the T.G.I. Friday's, the Denny's, the KFC's, etc., etc., etc..Dozens upon dozens upon dozens upon dozens of chain restaurants serving what I call pablum food..There are more than 100 of these franchise chains serving run-of-the-mill food that is supposed to taste exactly the same regardless of where in the United States it is purchased and eaten..

Because these chains have such tremendous purchasing influence they are dictating artificially low prices from the farmer all the way to the retail grocery store..If the franchise chain restaurant bubble ever bursts it will have an even greater impact on our economy than the oil industry does..Because, at the end of the day, the reality is that a very large percentage of Americans (especially those living in, or very near to cities) could stop driving cars every day..To do so would require a tremendous change in how we lived our lives, but if necessity so dictated, then we could do it..If the price of food stuffs in the grocery store were to double, triple, or quadruple the effect on the average citizen would be catastrophic..The average American already spends between 25-35% of their net annual income on food, and on every aspect that goes into getting that food from the grocery store into one's mouth....

Bruce

[rparmar]

Dozens upon dozens upon dozens upon dozens of chain restaurants serving what I call pablum food.

And not just the chains unfortunately. The hotels, many "fine" dining places, etc. When I used to visit the USA I was careful to not eat meat, because it all tasted like generic something-or-other and I could not be sure of its providence. Lamb did not taste like lamb, nor beef like beef, nor chicken like chicken (yes, chicken has a taste).

In Canada it was significantly better, though one had to be careful where one bought raw meats. Here in Ireland the quality is so incredible, because it's all local, fresh, and the specialty butcher tradition continues. Unfortunately the general level of restaurant cuisine is (very) low and many ingredients are simply not available. Even getting something like fresh cilantro is hit and miss.

I was in Toledo once at a jazz club and got to talking with the manager of the band that was playing. I asked he and his wife where they went for good food and they replied "Toronto". Unfortunately they weren't kidding.

[Gooshin]

i would like to raise one issue


at the bar service

when i sit down at the bar, and order a pint or a bottle, i try not to tip, or tip very little, because i find it laughable that i should pay someone money for opening a bottle (let alone a twist off) of beer that costs 3 times what it does at the liquor store.

yay/nay?

other than that i would like to agree with Bruce, in north america restaurant prices are laughably low, and if one actualy does the math of how much it would cost you to prepare the food yourself, and then factor in operating costs, they should quite easily come to the conclusion that these poor people get paid shit all.

ALSO, one thing that i think Bruce did not mention, is that in alot of cases the cooks take 3% of the tip jar at the end of the day, and that tips are not per-waitress, but all get thrown into one big jar which is then distributed evenly.

so seriously people, TIP, even if the food was bad, just dont go there next time if you dont like the service.

[Lowell Goudge]

Seems like lately, everytime the wife and I go out to dinner, this happens.

Waiter/waitress brings the bill and leaves it on the table. If you pay in cash, which I usually do, when they pick up the cash lately they've begun to ask "Do you want your change?"

Personally, I think that's just wrong. It's like saying to me "You are leaving me a tip, aren't you?" Which is pretty presumptious.

My feeling is that they should just bring your change period. Tips are earned, they are not just an automatic thing.

Anyone else feel this way? Or, am I just out in left field these days?

You could avoid this totally by simply telling them that you don't need the change, politely. i.e. hand them the check and cash and say "that's fine"

Note that just leaving the cash on the table after the bill could leave the money for the person that clears the table, which may have had nothing to do with your actual service

[Alfisti]

Now this isn't a dig at Americans or anything, but tipping seems so crazy to me.

Been in North America for 5 years and tipping is still the outright stupidest thing I have ever encountered. Not to mention most food places bend you over a barrel cost wise then pay their staff SFA and ask you to foot the wage bill.

If it wasn't for my missus I would never, ever eat out. Ever. i find it a complete and utter excercise in stupidity.

Been in North America for 5 years and tipping is still the outright stupidest thing I have ever encountered. Not to mention most food places bend you over a barrel cost wise then pay their staff SFA and ask you to foot the wage bill.

If it wasn't for my missus I would never, ever eat out. Ever. i find it a complete and utter excercise in stupidity.

I don't know about it being stupid. It encourages a waitress, sorry server, to give good service. It's the ultimate getting paid for what you actually do on a case by case basis. Bad service = little to no tip. Good service however would be 20-22% depending.


You are ultimately responsible for your own income. (usually. I mean you do have those who never tip at all) That's why socialists hate it. Personal responsibility

Thank You!! Thank You!!

As an American chef I can tell you that Americans are spoiled rotten with artificially low menu prices in restaurants..Just as we have had very low gasoline prices compared to the rest of the world, so have our dining out costs been much lower than the rest of the world..When the bubble bursts, as it eventually must, it will be a bitter pill to swallow..Look at how Americans screamed and complained last year when gasoline prices rose to $4.00 per gallon..People in Europe and Asia have been paying that much, or more, for a gallon of gasoline for 30-40 years..

Over 50% of the food produced and sold at the wholesale level in the United States goes not to grocery stores and fine dining restaurants, but to feed the voracious maw of the chain restaurant industry..To the Bob Evan's, the Howard Johnson's, the Taco Bell's, the McDonalds's the Wendy's, the Red Lobster's, the T.G.I. Friday's, the Denny's, the KFC's, etc., etc., etc..Dozens upon dozens upon dozens upon dozens of chain restaurants serving what I call pablum food..There are more than 100 of these franchise chains serving run-of-the-mill food that is supposed to taste exactly the same regardless of where in the United States it is purchased and eaten..

Because these chains have such tremendous purchasing influence they are dictating artificially low prices from the farmer all the way to the retail grocery store..If the franchise chain restaurant bubble ever bursts it will have an even greater impact on our economy than the oil industry does..Because, at the end of the day, the reality is that a very large percentage of Americans (especially those living in, or very near to cities) could stop driving cars every day..To do so would require a tremendous change in how we lived our lives, but if necessity so dictated, then we could do it..If the price of food stuffs in the grocery store were to double, triple, or quadruple the effect on the average citizen would be catastrophic..The average American already spends between 25-35% of their net annual income on food, and on every aspect that goes into getting that food from the grocery store into one's mouth....

Bruce

It's called free market! And please refrain from using McDonalds in the same sentence as food. Or fast. It is neither.

[Alfisti]

I don't know about it being stupid. It encourages a waitress, sorry server, to give good service. It's the ultimate getting paid for what you actually do on a case by case basis. Bad service = little to no tip. Good service however would be 20-22% depending.

You are ultimately responsible for your own income. (usually. I mean you do have those who never tip at all) That's why socialists hate it. Personal responsibility

In principal but it does not work like that. The tip is expected now, the 15% is a bare minimum for just being served, even badly.

Not to mention the OUTRAGEOUS cost of eating out, it should be cheaper if I am footing the bill for the wait staff wages. You simply cannot get out of somewhere even as crummy as Montanas for less than $50 for two hamburgers and a beer each.

A decent restaurant is $150 for two people including wine, the mark up on alcohol is criminal. A $15 bottle of yellowtail is $40. Then i pay the staff wages??? No thanks.

I loathe eating out, i could find about a billion better things to spend my money on.

[woodworm]

First off, I'm in the UK, so (in theory) everyone gets a minimum wage of around $8.40 (for workers over the age of 22) ...

I generally leave 15-20% tip regardless of how good the food is, the tip is just for the service. For me, good service is just to be polite, friendly and to get the food to me from the kitchen. But I don't like 'pushy' waiters so if they asked me for the change then they wouldn't get anything.

I recently visited Vienna, Austria and in two restaurants received some poor and awful service (one waiter accused us of stealing the wine glasses!) and in one coffee shop the waiter just thanked me for the money without even offering any change.

Do waiting staff share all their tips with kitchen, bar and cleaning staff then? I guess all these people are fairly low paid but they don't all have contact with the customers, yet they have all worked for the customer?

[Ratmagiclady]

Tips, for better or worse, are treated as part of the cost of the service on the customer's part, and as (the major) part of the waitstaff's pay by employers.

I've never taken 'Do you want your change' as any kind of imposition or pressure: the fact is it's sometimes more convenient not to make them run back with their tip so you can wait around to place it on the table. Or, hey, maybe you'd like to leave them a little more so as not to stiff them cause you didn't have the small bills.

Tipping is part of dining or drinking out where I'm from: people aren't supposed to wait on you hand and foot for nothing, and people live on their tips. I'd rather it be personal than have the prices raised. Then you can go to your pub and say, "I know I'm shorting you, I'll get you back next time,"


I like it. I'm hardly made of money, but I tip pretty generously. It's more personal that way, rather than putting it all in some boss' hands to squeeze out of the people who walk around all night serving the likes of me.

Someone gets shorted or stiffed by me, they both didn't do their job and managed to offend me in a big way. Everyone has bad nights.

[Ratmagiclady]

It's called free market!

To my experience, there's no such thing. It's just about who gets how much control.

In principal but it does not work like that. The tip is expected now, the 15% is a bare minimum for just being served, even badly.

Not to mention the OUTRAGEOUS cost of eating out, it should be cheaper if I am footing the bill for the wait staff wages. You simply cannot get out of somewhere even as crummy as Montanas for less than $50 for two hamburgers and a beer each.

A decent restaurant is $150 for two people including wine, the mark up on alcohol is criminal. A $15 bottle of yellowtail is $40. Then i pay the staff wages??? No thanks.

I loathe eating out, i could find about a billion better things to spend my money on.

$150 for two people? Glad I don't live in Canada. The tip may be expected but it must be earned. And like has been said it's for the service not the quality, or lack thereof of the food. If service has been good, regardless of the tast of the food then I tend to tip generously. Service stinks no tip for you.

$8.40 minimum wage? $15.00 Minimum wage? What's that in US $? (When Cost of living is factored in?) If you make $100/hour but a loaf of bread is $101 than not so good. Eh?

For Damn Brit

[baltochef920]

And not just the chains unfortunately. The hotels, many "fine" dining places, etc. When I used to visit the USA I was careful to not eat meat, because it all tasted like generic something-or-other and I could not be sure of its providence. Lamb did not taste like lamb, nor beef like beef, nor chicken like chicken (yes, chicken has a taste).

In Canada it was significantly better, though one had to be careful where one bought raw meats. Here in Ireland the quality is so incredible, because it's all local, fresh, and the specialty butcher tradition continues. Unfortunately the general level of restaurant cuisine is (very) low and many ingredients are simply not available. Even getting something like fresh cilantro is hit and miss.

I was in Toledo once at a jazz club and got to talking with the manager of the band that was playing. I asked he and his wife where they went for good food and they replied "Toronto". Unfortunately they weren't kidding.

You are absolutely right in this statement!!!..The following trends have led to this state of affairs..

1. The exponential growth of chain restaurants, due primarily to the average American's laziness and unwillingness to cook and enjoy a quality meal for themselves at home..

2. The rise in disposable income for the average American household which has allowed families to dine out a greater number of times per week/month/year than their counterpart families in Europe and Asia..

3. A general feeling amongst middle class to upper middle class American families that the more one ate out the more socially important they were..

4. Families with large amounts of disposable income trying to cram 18 hours of quality-driven activities into the 16 waking hours of each and every day..This leaves many families with little time to sit down together for an hour, to an hour and a half, to leisurely enjoy a home-cooked meal..

5. The growing demand from the American family, read housewife and mother, for convenience foods that will reduce the time spent putting food on the table when they did cook at home..This trend started in the 1960's with full protein dinner entrees for a family of 4 from Swanson..These were, and are, not very tasty..

6. As the 1970's progressed into the 1980's, convenience foods began to proliferate in grocery stores..Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola became the giant corporations that they are today..Americans started to become addicted to sugary sweet soda pop drinks, and stopped drinking water as a beverage..Children were allowed to drink soda, coffee, and tea (both hot and iced) in lieu of water..All of this served to turn the average American into a caffeine and sugar addict..It also dumbed down their taste buds, making them less able to appreciate really good cooking..

7. As the 1980's progressed chain restaurants flourished..Corporate America saw that American families increasingly were not willing to take the time to cook for themselves at home from scratch by the willingness of the buying public to purchase a growing number of convenience foods all designed to reduce the cook's time spent in the kitchen..These corporate heads took some huge risks and began to open chain restaurants that were offering more than just fried chicken, hamburgers, French fries, and pizza..

8. As the initial sit-down chain restaurants began to flourish in the 1980's, chain restaurants serving ethnic cuisines began to pop up all over the United States..Most of these started out as regional chains..

9. By the mid-1990's the American landscape was pretty much set as we see it today..In the eastern United States along the I-95 corridor, one cannot drive 5 miles without encountering at least 5-10 of these chain restaurants..This is true from Florida all the way to southern Maine..Other parts of the United States face similar situations..

10. Corporate America began to require increasingly huge supplies of fresh fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts, dairy, and meat products for the convenience foods of the 1970's through the mid-1980's..I include in this statement the convenience foods destined for the retail grocery stores, as well as the foods required for the rapidly expanding fast food industry..This corporate need for astoundingly huge amounts of foodstuffs that were as close as possible to being exactly the same as one another; fundamentally changed how food was grown in the United States..The USA went from a system of family farms in the 1960's that produced multiple kinds of foodstuffs destined to be sold locally (within several hundred miles of the family farm); to a system that by the 1990's was a one of increasingly larger farms owned by corporations producing 1-3 crops (monoculture) destined for processing plants that were sometimes thousands of miles away from the farm..

11. The older ways of growing foods and raising animals for meat no longer were fast enough for the new system of farming..Using animal manures and crop rotations that were on a 7-year cycle simply was too slow..So chemical fertilizers began to replace animal manures..If a certain amount of chemical fertilizer grew a good crop, then more must be capable of growing a great crop..The overuse of fertilizers led to the near complete death of the living organisms in the soil..A single cubic inch of fertile, organic soil high in humus contains millions of different organisms ranging from viruses to worms in it..Over-fertilized soil is dead and virtually sterile by comparison..When over fertilized dead soil started to result in crops that were sickly due to diseases, or from being beset with infestations of insect pests; then various chemical poisons were sprayed onto the soil or onto the crops themselves to try and combat the insects and diseases..Then, the chemical companies decided to ease the farmer's burden of having to physically cultivate the soil before and after planting to keep weeds in check..Thus, herbicides were born and began to see increasing use on American farms..All of these poisons further reduced soil life to sterile proportions which simply perpetuated the Catch-22 cycle of insect and disease problems that plagued farmers..

12. Animals needed to be raised faster so they were practically force fed grains that were designed for rapid growth and maximum weight gain, which is to say, muscle mass..Hormones were added to the diet of animals to promote weight gain/muscle mass..Antibiotics were added to animal feeds to reduce the risk of losing a valuable animal due to disease, as well as to promote weight gain..Animal farms went from being fairly humane to nothing more than factories where animals were crowded as closely together as was physically possible so as to raise the greatest number of animals per square foot of space..In the past it had been considered a tragedy to lose an animal raised for food, and everything possible was done to prevent the unwanted deaths of farm animals..The new crammed together method of raising animals factored a certain percentage of deaths per every 100 animals raised, before they were killed and processed into meat for consumers..This added a certain inhumanity into the equation of raising animals for food that had seldom ever existed in the history of human agriculture..

13. All of these radically different farming methodologies that have dominated American farms starting in the 1970's, have homogenized the taste of the foodstuffs being grown and sold in the United States..The agribusiness model of farming, which many family farmers have adopted in order to try and stay competitive, simply requires and demands that a tomato grown in Pennsylvania resemble as closely as possible, in taste and texture, a tomato grown in California..Or Illinois..Or Texas..A McDonalds French fry must taste the same regardless of where in the United States the Mcdonalds restaurant is located..It must taste the same regardless of where in the United States the potato is grown..This demand for absolute homogenization more, or less, started with McDonalds, and now infects every aspect of food production in the USA..This homogenization applies equally to fruits, vegetables, meats, dairy products, nuts, and grains..

14. Beef should taste as different from lamb, as bear meat does from rabbit..The reason so much American factory farm-raised meat tastes so alike is that the animals are fed the exact same foods in order to encourage fast growth combined with maximum weight gain/muscle mass..Even those farmers raising free-range animals are often planting their fields with the same grasses as the farmer next door to them does..One reason that the meats in Ireland taste so good is that most farmers there graze their animals on fields that contain radically different species of plants than those plants to be found in an American farmer's fields..Many of those Irish species of plants are native grasses that have never been modified by humans..This results in meats that can taste quite different from one another depending on the species of plants being grazed upon, and the time of year that the animal is harvested..The sad fact is that native grasses and forage plants have been reduced virtually to extinction in the United States..Thus, most farmers have no other choice but to plant highly cultivated and modified plants for forage..Which serves to homogenize the taste of animals being raised fot meat in the USA..

Bruce