[FHPhotographer]

The issue is, do you/me/we have a right to take somebody's photograph without their permission? And once we've captured the image, what can we do/not do ethically with that image?

Commercial use is pretty clearly defined: if you have a recognizable image of an individual, sell it, you need the subject's permission (this doesn't apply to press photography, generally, but it does explain why newspapers are so very careful these days about their photo archives and use).

But what about posting a stranger's image on the internet, emailing it to your friends, etc? Once a non-copyrighted image (i.e., a federally-filed and fee-paid copyright, not something we stick on an image to declare ownership) is posted, all control over reuse is lost and it essentially becomes public property. Somebody downloads it, amends/ blends/ composits/ clones/morphs or whatever that image into a commercial product, what then?

I don't have the answer, but it's something to think about. Maybe,

Reconsidered comments: I take it back, it do have the answer for myself after reading the various posts. Thanks for sharing the various points of view; I know realize this is two issues, the taking and the showing of the images.

On the side of taking the photograhy, and legality aside, I reiterate that this is an ethical issue we should individually consider and not dismiss out of hand simply because it conflicts with some assumed right to take photographs.

Where do you draw the line: telephoto images of someone walking down the street are ok, but macro images with flash a foot away from somebody's face isn't ? How close is intrusive, how close is too close? Is it ethical to take an image of a young couple kanoodling on the park grass in a bright summer day, but not okay to sneak up and photograph them in a parked car on a back road? Or maybe I can stand on public property and take photographs of somebody on privatge property?

I, for one, am not prepared to say that because I have a camera in hand I am unbound by any common rule of decency, or by respect for the privacy of others, simply because that person happened to be in my camera's view in public. My position is that if I take somebody's photograph I should ask their permission; that if I distribute it in any way, I need their release in writing.
Brian

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Last edited by FHPhotographer; 01-25-2009 at 04:17 PM. Reason: additional comments

[drewdlephone]

If you're obviously using the person as part of your photograph (they happen to be there, enhance the photo, or whatnot) then you should ask them if they mind. If people walk in front of you when you're obviously taking a photograph, that says to me they could care less. Subsequently, I don't have to ask their permission, as long as the photo isn't centered on them as the subject. If you're selling the image, like you mentioned, you should have permission of those in the image, but what do you do with a crowd of 6000 at a Metallica concert? You can't possibly ask every one of those people for the right to be photographed.

People post pictures with other people in them on the internet all the time. I think if someone takes your photographs and attempts to sell them, it's more a problem between you and the impostor, rather than you and the subject in the image. You're not the one selling the image, therefore because of the anonymity of the internet, you should be precluded from being slapped with legalities, even if you took the picture, as you hadn't intended to sell it.

That's my take anyways. I'm not sure if the law states otherwise.

[k100d]

there are some people that make a lot of money off street photography. edit: maybe not a lot, i dunno what pros make, but a living yes

are you ok with this ?
The Online Photographer: Whaddaya Mean, 'Not Here'?

[redpigeons]

there are some people that make a lot of money off street photography. edit: maybe not a lot, i dunno what pros make, but a living yes

are you ok with this ?
The Online Photographer: Whaddaya Mean, 'Not Here'?

that was fantastic !!! I saw this guy on the subway he had a canon then

[Gooshin]

i am of the opinion that i can photograph whatever i want

whether i am gutsy enough at any given moment is a different story... usualy having consumed a couple of beers my discretion as to what i'm photographing disappears

[FHPhotographer]

If you're obviously using the person as part of your photograph (they happen to be there, enhance the photo, or whatnot) then you should ask them if they mind. If people walk in front of you when you're obviously taking a photograph, that says to me they could care less. Subsequently, I don't have to ask their permission, as long as the photo isn't centered on them as the subject. If you're selling the image, like you mentioned, you should have permission of those in the image, but what do you do with a crowd of 6000 at a Metallica concert? You can't possibly ask every one of those people for the right to be photographed.

People post pictures with other people in them on the internet all the time. I think if someone takes your photographs and attempts to sell them, it's more a problem between you and the impostor, rather than you and the subject in the image. You're not the one selling the image, therefore because of the anonymity of the internet, you should be precluded from being slapped with legalities, even if you took the picture, as you hadn't intended to sell it.

That's my take anyways. I'm not sure if the law states otherwise.

Well, if you shoot a Metallica concert and get thousands (or just hundreds or dozens, it doesn't really matter how many), and the individual likenesses aren't large enough to identify, you're probably okay; that's the general rule used by news editors. However, if you isolate on a few people and they can be identified, and the image(s) is used commercially, you might be liable. Intention isn't much of a defense when the judge asked you why you posted that image and it was picked up and used commercially and, for some reason, it held that person up to disrepute.
Brian

[FHPhotographer]

i am of the opinion that i can photograph whatever i want

whether i am gutsy enough at any given moment is a different story... usualy having consumed a couple of beers my discretion as to what i'm photographing disappears

You may be of any opinion you want, you may be of the opinion that the law doesn't apply to you, but that isn't going to matter much in court. I don't know what the laws of misappropriation of image are in Canada, but they are probably based substantially on British common law (as is much US law), and if so this issue exists, it's real, and you can believe whatever you chose.

I'm not talking about taking the image, I'm talking about posting the image. Two very different things. A word to the wise is usually sufficient,
Brian

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Last edited by FHPhotographer; 01-13-2009 at 08:54 PM.

[Gooshin]

You may be of any opinion you want, you may be of the opinion that the law doesn't apply to you, but that isn't going to matter much in court. I don't know what the laws of misappropriation of image are in Canada, but they are probably based substantially on British common law (as is much US law), and if so this issue exists, it's real, and you can believe whatever you chose.

I'm not talking about taking the image, I'm talking about posting the image. Two very different things. A word to the wise is usually sufficient,
Brian

you asked for ethics, i gave you ethics, not a legal answer

since you already seem to know the legal ramifications of photo publishing, why are you asking questions?

[FHPhotographer]

there are some people that make a lot of money off street photography. edit: maybe not a lot, i dunno what pros make, but a living yes

are you ok with this ?
The Online Photographer: Whaddaya Mean, 'Not Here'?

... is still a bottom feeder.

He thinks the sidewalk belongs to him; it doesn't. He thinks he has a "right" to take photographs without permission, or release, for commercial use; he doesn't.

There are folks in the world who believe the rights of others are never as important as their assumed rights.
Brian

[krypticide]

He's got the right to take pictures of people in public. Whether his style is appropriate is up to debate. Personally, his pictures are amazing and he's not hurting anyone; the only person who should be worried is him, if he takes the picture of the wrong person.

As for selling those pictures, I'm not so sure but I'm guessing it's okay because it's for art and not as an endorsement in a commercial, etc.

But if you walk down the street with a movie camera, people would fall over themselves to get in front of it.
I think the average person isn't going to be bothered about something like this. Legal action may happen (rarely though).
Unless someone is dumb enough to go stalking someone, I don't think there is an issue here. But that's just my opinion.

[PDL]

Read this:
How to Photograph People When Traveling
and this:
Photographing People When Traveling

Good idea - treat the subject as if it were your grandmother. Ask, you meet very interesting people that way. That said, if you are in a public area in the US, then you can take images of people, just do not become Paparazzi and ruin it for me.

I have found that if you point to your camera and point at the person - if you do not get a frown or the international single digit NO sign, you are pretty safe.

The Elitist - formerly known as PDL

If I want a portrait of someone, I'm gonna treat them with respect, talk to them, not just take their picture.

Photographers that make me sick are these people that go on a cruise or a tour. Whatever village or place they visit they just charge in taking pictures but ignoring the people otherwise as if they are there just to be photographed. These people don't even take the trouble to buy a trinket or acknowledge those they have just invaded.

[NicholasN]

If you take a photo to sell for artistic purposes you don't need a model release? I am just asking not accusing.

[Gooshin]

If you take a photo to sell for artistic purposes you don't need a model release? I am just asking not accusing.

veries from country to country