[SuperAkuma]

I started writing articles for online content providers for extra money. My first article was rejected for improper comma usage.

When I was looking for a site with the rules for comma usage, I found one with lots of other grammar exercises. I started at the beginning, with verbs, and realized how much basic grammar I don't know.

My problem is this, I graduated from high school with honors. There's no reason anyone should be graduating from high school with honors if they don't know how to put a sentence together(put together a sentence?)

I don't think it's a problem with the resources offered by schools. I think you can get a hell of a lot out of school, if you apply yourself, and take it seriously. I did neither of those things, and I know that's my fault. My main interests were martial arts, skateboarding, and doing drugs. But I also think that if I didn't know how to properly construct a sentence, then there's no reason I should have graduated with honors. I should have been given a "hey, you just barely made it" diploma, at best.

I have no problem with teaching myself grammar now. But I think it's sad that I was even allowed to pass the 12th grade, without having it so chiseled into my mind, that I couldn't forget it if I wanted to.

Just so you know, I'm 26. So high school was a long time ago for me. I started this writing thing because my career as real estate appraiser isn't exactly a career anymore. Also, my next business won't be up and running until some time in April.

I apologize for all of the improper punctuation, and grammar mistakes that I'm sure are in this rant. I would go back and fix them, but I don't know how

In your case I don't think the school failed. I am not saying the school system is perfect but saying the school failed because they didn't make you remember ALL of the rules in English is a little harsh. Lets face it, there are TOO many rules in English PERIOD! I think it is really hard for most of us to remember ALL of the rules of the English language. I am sure we know about 80-90% of the rules, but the little minor ones, it is just hard to remember because we don't use all of the rules daily.

In a way it is just like math. I am in calculus right now. Calculus is a fairly advance math class and is higher than Trig. If you ask me what the law of sin/cos/tan, I would not be able to tell you on top of my head. But if I look it up, I would be able to tell you the answer and what they mean.

If you can't read or write at all and if you graduate, the system has failed. Since you are able to look up what you did wrong and understand it, then I see no problem at all.

You should know that at a certain point grammar yields to style.

Also: content ALWAYS trumps a few comma splices. Concentrate on your meaning, and message.

Not that different from what separates a good photo from the dross. And also: easy to describe, hard to do.

I totally agree. A grammaticly correct sentence, completely devoid of thought, or entertainment value, is useless. Unless you're using it to teach grammar. I also think it's important to know the rules first, then deliberately bend or break them to get the results you want. I think if you look at most of the people who have made great art, either in writing, or photography, they could easily write a technically correct sentence, or take a technically correct photo, if they want to, but choose not to in order to express themselves.

I disagree somewhat in what the two of you say, I like your comparison with photography but I differ in interpretation. Your comparison I would equate more closely to the snapshooter who,by the law of averages, produces good shots. The person with the knowledge of grammar I would equate to the enthusiast who has learnt the technical ropes to enable them to consistently produce good pictures. I think that grammar (complicated as it is) is what gives the language structure. I'd even go so far as to suggest that society is harmed by the lowering of educational and as a consequence, grammatical and social standards.

[KrisK10D]

I started writing articles for online content providers for extra money. My first article was rejected for improper comma usage.

Tho I understand that most schools in first world countries suffer from budgetary constraints, I would suggest that if an article was knocked back for 'comma usage' only, then they just didn't want your article.

[krypticide]

This is a very complex issue. I believe it's a combination of poor curriculum, poor teaching, and poor student motivation. I'll tackle these one by one.

First, a little background on me, so you understand my perspective. People have called me smart all my life, and have high hopes for me. I skipped 6th grade. I started taking city college classes in 8th grade. I took university classes in 10th grade, I went to MIT for my undergrad, and I'm most of the way through a PhD at Stanford. I have ambitions to do a startup that will change the way we use fuel and electricity.

Poor curriculum: we don't teach grammar anymore. We teach literature, but not so much the basics about sentence structure or syntax. Somehow, we assume that as native speakers of the language, we will pick that up naturally. Well, I learned most about grammar and all that in my German classes, and never in English. This is also why many Hispanic students in my high school did poorly in Spanish classes: we assume they would have a natural advantage as a native speaker, but most of them actually didn't have any formal training and were thus not nearly as better off as one would first think.

Poor teachers: the common complaint is that teachers are underpaid, and are poor. We don't pay teachers enough to attract very well-qualified applicants, and there are too few teachers who are good and want to teach, despite the poor pay.

Undermotivated students: this I think is the biggest problem. There are plenty of bright people who just aren't motivated, either because of poor family education or a sense of entitlement without work (especially with the younger generations). No offense to the OP (especially since you have come to revelation of sorts), but I saw lots of kids like your younger self in high school: all they did was party, do drugs, sleep around, and enjoy being "cool" because they were "socially smart" as opposed to the "smacks" (a term popular when I was in junior high) or "smart" people.

This is the biggest problem, in my opinion. Money isn't the issue. We have enough infrastructure in this country that properly motivated people can educate themselves, even if the local system is failing them. I don't see a bad education system as an excuse. People who want to learn and be educated will find a way; everyone else will find an excuse for why they have limited themselves.

[jeenyus]

Tho I understand that most schools in first world countries suffer from budgetary constraints, I would suggest that if an article was knocked back for 'comma usage' only, then they just didn't want your article.

Oh, it wasn't the only reason. But it was a reason, and since they included a link to a site explaining proper comma usage, I do believe it had something to do with it.

[jeenyus]

This is a very complex issue. I believe it's a combination of poor curriculum, poor teaching, and poor student motivation. I'll tackle these one by one.

First, a little background on me, so you understand my perspective. People have called me smart all my life, and have high hopes for me. I skipped 6th grade. I started taking city college classes in 8th grade. I took university classes in 10th grade, I went to MIT for my undergrad, and I'm most of the way through a PhD at Stanford. I have ambitions to do a startup that will change the way we use fuel and electricity.

Poor curriculum: we don't teach grammar anymore. We teach literature, but not so much the basics about sentence structure or syntax. Somehow, we assume that as native speakers of the language, we will pick that up naturally. Well, I learned most about grammar and all that in my German classes, and never in English. This is also why many Hispanic students in my high school did poorly in Spanish classes: we assume they would have a natural advantage as a native speaker, but most of them actually didn't have any formal training and were thus not nearly as better off as one would first think.

Poor teachers: the common complaint is that teachers are underpaid, and are poor. We don't pay teachers enough to attract very well-qualified applicants, and there are too few teachers who are good and want to teach, despite the poor pay.

Undermotivated students: this I think is the biggest problem. There are plenty of bright people who just aren't motivated, either because of poor family education or a sense of entitlement without work (especially with the younger generations). No offense to the OP (especially since you have come to revelation of sorts), but I saw lots of kids like your younger self in high school: all they did was party, do drugs, sleep around, and enjoy being "cool" because they were "socially smart" as opposed to the "smacks" (a term popular when I was in junior high) or "smart" people.

This is the biggest problem, in my opinion. Money isn't the issue. We have enough infrastructure in this country that properly motivated people can educate themselves, even if the local system is failing them. I don't see a bad education system as an excuse. People who want to learn and be educated will find a way; everyone else will find an excuse for why they have limited themselves.

First of all, good for you, it seems like you have a great start. And I hope your business works out for you. Few people have that kind of direction in their life.

I think you may be right about the grammar vs. literature aspect. A solid foundation in grammar isn't all that necessary for enjoying, or even analyzing what you read. They are too seperate things, and I think vocabulary is more important than grammar for reading. I have no problem with vocabulary. I read often, I always have, and I look up words I don't know.

I don't regret my years in high school. I didn't party much, maybe once a month I'd go to a rave. My drug of choice of pot, and I had mostly calmed down with that by high school. No drugs when training for a fight. Most of my time actually went into the martial arts, and skateboarding. The skateboarding may have been a waste of time, but I really did enjoy it. But through martial arts I actually learned a lot about pushing myself past my percieved limits. I learned the joy of putting everything I have into something and succeeding, and the pain of putting everything I have into something and failing. I like that I can understand when I see fighters - who seem so tough, and can take a beating in the ring - break down and cry. It has nothing to do with physical pain, it's a sudden release of months of emotion, it's a pain I'm happy to know. I also learned how to teach, and how to communicate with people. I spent about as much time teaching classes, as training.

I know I could have gotten more out of school. My little sister went to the same schools I did, and got a lot more out of it. My problem isn't with what schools offer as resources. My gripe is not that I made it through high school. It's that I made it through high school "with honors". I think it's just too easy, I think the bar should be set higher.

[KrisK10D]

Oh, it wasn't the only reason. But it was a reason, and since they included a link to a site explaining proper comma usage, I do believe it had something to do with it.

Gees... They must be saving money by not hiring Editors and proof readers. Which as an avid reader (and to go off topic a bit) seems to be becoming more popular all the time. Can't tell you the amount of typos, grammar and spelling mistakes I've seen in best selling books. I feel like attacking them with a fluro pink highlight pen and sending the book back to the publisher asking for a job

If books didn't cost a rediculous amount of money I would

[jeenyus]

Gees... They must be saving money by not hiring Editors and proof readers. Which as an avid reader (and to go off topic a bit) seems to be becoming more popular all the time. Can't tell you the amount of typos, grammar and spelling mistakes I've seen in best selling books. I feel like attacking them with a fluro pink highlight pen and sending the book back to the publisher asking for a job

If books didn't cost a rediculous amount of money I would

Haha, I think you should do it at least once. I would love to see if you get a response. Just wait till it comes out in paperback though, so it's not too expensive

[KrisK10D]

OK... maybe I should, just once, and see what happens

[krypticide]

I'm a tradition nazi, in some ways. I wince everytime I see "definately" or when people use SMS-style messaging for formal communication. People argue that we shouldn't let tradition get in the way of evolving communication, but I don't like the fact that the evolution seems to be driven by lack of concern and motivation.

I wish I had done martial arts as a kid. I'm Asian, 5'6" and about 125-130 pounds. It's easy for bigger dudes to try to intimidate me (though fortunately I haven't been in those situations much). I think martial arts would have helped me feel more confident.

Sports in general are good things to have your kids do. I played tennis in high school and was once ranked as high as #60 nationally. It kept me in good shape, and more importantly, contributed a lot to mental toughness, strategy, and overall development. I'm obviously biased, but I think certain sports are "better" than others from this standpoint: for example, I think football offers too much physical injury risk relative to the physical and mental gains you get, and I wouldn't recommend it to kids.

[Blue]

Often, there are more than one correct way to grammatically do things. For example, commas are optional in some situations.

Edit: As far as our education systems go, we often don't look to see what we are doing right.

[Ratmagiclady]

As for 'what's with the schools,' I think it's pretty obvious if you ever considered a life teaching high school: there's a whole attitude where teachers are those who can't make it doing anything else, and a general disrespect for the profession, .....which unfortunately just seems to discourage those who could be really good at teaching from choosing the profession, even if the alternative means being a dissatisfied lab science or grad student in the humanities,

All it seems the public cares about in a teacher these days would seem to be if they make good babysitters and will teach certain kinds of religion for people. Kids get 'education majors,' and, too often near-washouts who don't necessarily even wan to be there.

The best teachers I ever had pretty much all had to moonlight tending bar, out of sheer idealism.

Starving the system of resources as though capitalism will make some lazy teachers buckle down is actually one of the fictions of our consumer economy.


If we want valuable teachers, we have to value teaching, it's as simple as that.

[SpecialK]

But I think it's sad that I was even allowed to pass the 12th grade, without having it so chiseled into my mind, that I couldn't forget it if I wanted to.

If you spend any time on a forum, you will see that many people (I'm only picking on native English speakers) can not spell - even basic photography words such as "lens" (not lens') and aperture (not aperature or apature).

I've always prided myself on my spelling and grammar, but I've given up on correcting other's goofs - it is just too late, and goes nowhere.

Luckily, as pointed out elsewhere, correct spelling is no longer necessary.

The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt

[jeenyus]

@Ratmagiclady

I agree that teachers are often not as appreciated as they should be. I had some fantastic teachers. And they weren't always the one's I liked

To give you some background information. I went to a couple different middle schools, and three high schools. They were in higher income towns, and lower income towns. Never inner city though, so I don't have any experience with that. So I'm not basing my opinion on any one school system.

What I found is that the teachers often have their hands tied by administrations, forced to adhere to certain curriculums, and give tests that are easier to quantify. Which generally means lots of pre-approved muliple choice tests. Which were always easy for me. I never considered them an effective teaching tool, I always figured you're starting with a 25, based on chance, and process of elimination with almost no knowledge of the subject matter can usaully get you up to about a 50. It's not true in all cases, but certainly true in som.

A couple of the schools I went to weren't like that. The teachers were free to teach. I believe they had the course outlines approved, but were free to teach that information to the kids in the way they found most effective. In those schools, my grades suffered, but I learned more. I didn't feel I needed to be a straight A student, but I didn't like to fail either. Not graduating high school was never an option, so I was forced to put in more "minimum" effort. I wouldn't have done that if the teachers were afraid of hurting my feelings. Or if they were under pressure to make every kid pass, and pass well. I guess tough, but fair, would be the best way to describe some of those teachers. And in situations where I was willing to put in the extra effort they were there to help me. I value the C's, B's and occasional A's that I got in those classes far more that the A+'s I got in classes I was allowed to skate through. When everyone in a lower level(not advanced, AP, etc), is getting A's then I think there's a problem. Good grades, dont eqwal good lerning

[jeenyus]

If you spend any time on a forum, you will see that many people (I'm only picking on native English speakers) can not spell - even basic photography words such as "lens" (not lens') and aperture (not aperature or apature).

I've always prided myself on my spelling and grammar, but I've given up on correcting other's goofs - it is just too late, and goes nowhere.

Luckily, as pointed out elsewhere, correct spelling is no longer necessary.

The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt

Haha, thank you so much for that I think it's still important to have all the letters in the word though, but I may be wrong on that.